Vocal Quality: How far can i go?

[Tenderfoot]

Been saving, learning and well researching. I was wondering what vocal quality one can reach with spending alot of time on technique and gaining experience with the following recording chain [with a good vocalist of course]:

Recording Chain:
Fairly treated room - AT4047/HEIL PR40[I'm getting both] - Balanced Cable - DAV BG1 - Balanced Cable - Audiophile 192

I'm planning to purchase the AT4047 [A heil PR40 later on, just in case a singer or rapper i'm working with sounds better on a good dynamic mic rather than the condensers] and DAV BG1, thats what i don't have at the moment.

Monitoring Chain:
Audiophile 192 - Balanced Cable - Focal Solo6 BE - Fairly Treated Room

Could i hit the tip of the ice berg of a semi - pro recording or sound? Or its back to saving lol ...thing is i've managed to get fairly good results with my Soundcraft compact 4 mixer and AKG C1000S but was looking to get a good large diaphram microphone and preamp to grow with.

If you know your stuff please do reply.

[Weasel9992]

Yes, definitely...it depends on the singer and your particular skill level. The 4047 paired with a DAV pre is going to be pretty present though...you'll probably require a dip around the 2-4Khz range and a dip (maybe a shelf) around 8Khz...I'd have to hear it to be sure, but that'd be my guess. Maybe not though. Bottom line is, that's a good enough signal chain to get great results.

Weez

[Tenderfoot]

Great! Thanks for the feedback Weez ^_^ ....EQ i'll definetly keep that one in mind.

Before i do any purchase, I was plannng to audition a couple of mics including the AT4047, just incase my voice sounds better in any of the above mics. :

Shure KSM44
Shuure KSM32
AKG C414
Neumann TLM03


My budget the mic is £600 for the mic and £500 [should be the other way round, but what preamps around £500 are better than the DAV,
in terms of transparency and headroom??] for a preamp, DAV which is made here in the UK seems to be hailed above the FMR which is £350
and according to the preamp chart has less colouration than the FMR.
I'm looking for transperancy what you put in is what you get.

If anyone has any mic recommendations i could audition below £600 please do mention so i can add them on my auditioning list.

[Weasel9992]

I'd drop the TLM103 from that list...it's one of those mics that I really, really dislike. The others are all worthy contenders, especially the KSM44...great mic, less bright than the AT40 series mics. The C414 is a fantastic workhorse, but I don't know that it'd be in my top 5 for vocals.

The DAV preamp is exactly what the doctor ordered if you're looking for transparency.

Weez

[jandrodavalos]

I'd drop the TLM103 from that list...it's one of those mics that I really, really dislike. The others are all worthy contenders, especially the KSM44...great mic, less bright than the AT40 series mics. The C414 is a fantastic workhorse, but I don't know that it'd be in my top 5 for vocals.

The DAV preamp is exactly what the doctor ordered if you're looking for transparency.

Weez

Weasel why are you a hater of the tlm 103 if you don't mind me asking ??
Are you not neumann fan and what is your top 5

[Spy!]

I've never personally used the TLM-103, but I have a friend who bought one (he also has U87's and an M49) and he thinks it's sub-standard, not just by Neumann standards but by LDC standards in general.

It's an opinion I've seen expressed on many forums too, so I suspect Weez is probably right on the money here. However, like I said, I haven't used one myself so I can't vouch for that opinion.

[Weasel9992]

Don't get me wrong...I love me a good U86/67/47, or a TLM 49 or TLM 127. Neumann makes a fantastic product, but I just don't like the 103 at all. It sounded really hyped, like harsh hyped in the highs. Almost like a 250Hz HP plus a generous bump in the high mids. Yuck. Sounded bad on everything we tried it on, through every pre in the shop (Great River, A-Designes, Daking, API, Manley and SSL). I brought my $300 Superlux toob mic from home and it beat the tar out of the 103. These are just my opinions, of course....YMMV, so no flaming please.

My top 5 in the sub-$1,000 range would be:
1.) Shure SM7b
2.) Mojave Audio MA-200
3.) Shure KSM-44
4.) AKG C414
5.) Soundelux U195 (which you can usually get right at $1,000)

There are lots of condenders in this price range though, many of which I've never even tried. I think Rimski has some good mics around this price range too.

Weez

[jandrodavalos]

Don't get me wrong...I love me a good U86/67/47, or a TLM 49 or TLM 127. Neumann makes a fantastic product, but I just don't like the 103 at all. It sounded really hyped, like harsh hyped in the highs. Almost like a 250Hz HP plus a generous bump in the high mids. Yuck. Sounded bad on everything we tried it on, through every pre in the shop (Great River, A-Designes, Daking, API, Manley and SSL). I brought my $300 Superlux toob mic from home and it beat the tar out of the 103. These are just my opinions, of course....YMMV, so no flaming please.

My top 5 in the sub-$1,000 range would be:
1.) Shure SM7b
2.) Mojave Audio MA-200
3.) Shure KSM-44
4.) AKG C414
5.) Soundelux U195 (which you can usually get right at $1,000)

There are lots of condenders in this price range though, many of which I've never even tried. I think Rimski has some good mics around this price range too.

Weez

harsh hyped in the highs! thats just funny

[jandrodavalos]

I own the neumann 103 and there was a lot of hype around this mic from tweak and some of my friends but I will agree with you I am not really impressed with this mic.

[jandrodavalos]

however

[jandrodavalos]

a broadcasting dynamic mic is at the top of your list

[jandrodavalos]

[Weasel9992]

...aaaand broadcasting mics were designed to do what...? Transmit information in the vocal range clearly and efficiently, which makes it a perfect mic for sung vocals as well.

Like any dynamic mic, what you get out of the SM7 is dependant on the preamp. Spend $350 on it and...I don't know...maybe $500 on an RNP, or better yet $1,100 or so on a really fine pre and you'll see what I mean. The SM7 is my go-to mic for vocals unless it's a very intimate, detailed thing.

If you've already got at least one nice preamp, and you've got $350 extra clams lying around, buy one.

Weez

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Honest... Two of the greatest vocal mics of all time, at any price (the SM7b and RE20), getting the "broadcast dynamic" thing thrown at them all over... I've been seeing it all over lately - Probably because GC (FINALLY) put it in their sales flyers.

As if "dynamic" was a diss of some sort (evidently, it is to a lot of "less seasoned" engineers that don't quite understand mic'ing applications).

People have to stop reading the hype and start trying out those "broadcast" (listen to the sarcasm dripping off that one) microphones...

It's not a "broadcasting" mic -- It's a mic. A fantastic vocal mic (IMO) which I choose to use probably 90% of the time for vocal applications (over 414's, over U87's, over TLM103's, over pretty much anything) that (also IMO) has recently been "blacklisted" for lack of a better term - as if just because it's such a phenomenal mic for reproducing vocals, that it doesn't make a good vocal mic.

Sounds like the Chewbacca defense.

And why did it take five posts...?

[jandrodavalos]

sorry about the five posts massive and I must say I have a lot of learning to do, I hope that I am not coming off ignorant.
I am just confused by this because I believe that a good dynamic and a good condenser both have there place and can be used like you said. What I heard from my music teacher at school and from my production manager at work ( I work at clear channel radio ) is that dynamic mics should only be used for instruments in the studio. I used the sm57 and the tlm103 recently I prefered the sm57 over the tlm.I know that each mic is different for each person.
thanks for clarifying my ignorant newbie opinion massive and weasel

[MASSIVE Mastering]

They *do* both have their place. I'm just flustered lately - Over the past - I don't know - 5, 6, maybe 10 years... There's a really odd thing going on in the industry.

I understand the "teacher" thing. So many of them have absolutely no clue, I can't believe they're allowed to teach how to plug in a set of headphones. The radio guy, I'd wonder... As I always wondered about Howard Stern - Probably the only "huge name" in radio that doesn't use a 7b or RE20 for some reason - And you can hear it... He sounds a bit brittle, "hyped" in the highs, while everyone else in the studio (all of whom use SM7b's) sound smooth and warm across the spectrum.

Dynamics (and dynamic ribbons) have been around for a very long time... And staple mics (like the 7 and 20) are in literally every single studio on the planet. But it seems that lately, the push by the marketing guys (usually of really crappy sounding mics) is towards condensers for nearly every studio vocal situation. I just can't figure it out...

Condensers are great when you need them - As are dynamics. But for vocals - Especially for aggressive vocals -- Rock, rap, HH, metal - I almost can't imagine why anyone would assume than an overly-sensitive condenser would perform better than a large-diaphragm dynamic...

[Grimskald]

I agree with you Massive, I noticed a while ago how many (metal) singers use the SM7b. (I had to find out what that weird looking mic was) and they sound awesome. The thing is, there are also a lot of good condensers which are a lot cheaper.

[Simbelmyne]

I'd also like to add that in addition to its great performance on vocals, the sm7b also does amazingly on a number of different applications.

For example, I have been using it for electric guitars. It has a great full response, especially with the 5k boost. I like it better for this app than the Senn 421. Very nice when teamed with a 57.

[Weasel9992]

What I heard from my music teacher at school and from my production manager at work ( I work at clear channel radio ) is that dynamic mics should only be used for instruments in the studio.

Wow. Just so you know, we've been using dynamic mics for recorded vocals for about 50 years. Secondly, of all the things I'd reach for a dynamic first for, instrument mic'ing would not be one of them. Oddly enough, I'd reach for a condenser mic first almost every time...or a ribbon depending on the application.

Weez

[Swami Digital]

This is somewhat off topic, but I was wondering how style plays into the vocal mic debate. If the singer were classical in style, wishing a lot of detail and nuance to be captured, an LDC would be the way to go, right?

I am wondering because I have a Rode NT1a which I've heard is harsh, but I like the way it captures certain nuances vs. my SM-58. I was contemplating upgrading to a SM7b + Grace 101 combo, however I have since been considering getting just the preamp and saving for a more expensive LDC like the K2 or MA-200. (I've heard a lot of good things about the MA-200, but only via reviews and forums and such.) Getting something like a U87 would be way beyond my scope, of course.

Of course, you can't tell exactly without hearing the source itself I'm sure, but my main question is whether a good (but not best) LDC would be better than an SM7b, given a classical singing style where nuance and microtonal variation can be important.

-D

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Here's a "rule of thumb" if there is such a thing in this case:

If you want to pick up exactly what is being produced, use a condenser (hence why it's used on most acoustic instruments and non-"spiky" percussion like overheads, room mic'ing, semi-distant hand percussion, etc).

It's just that it's such a rare occasion -- "I recorded my vocals and they aren't 'pro' sounding." Well, yeah. If you are a 'pro' and you sound as you want to be captured, there you go. If it didn't turn out that way, it's not the mic's fault.

"Instrumental" voices -- Voices that carry the way an instrument would -- Mariah Carey, Celine, Barry White -- Condenser. Maybe. At least they would be contending for condensers. Yelling, talking, screaming, rapping, aggressive singing - Even instrumental voices - might well be more flattered and fit the mix better with a dynamic.

And yes, if I were recording a mezzo-soprano in an excellent sounding hall, I'd no doubt reach for a U47FET or a C-12 or something along those lines. If the hall sucked, or if I needed the vocal to be "in your face" for whatever reason, I'm back to the dynamic.

When I want something to respond well to EQ and dynamics changes, I'll usually go with a dynamic also... Put 3dB of high shelf on a lot of condensers and notice how it tends to get brittle and synthetic. Put 3dB of the same on a large dynamic and listen to how the top end opens up.

Put 3dB of GR on a condenser and hear the room pumping in the background. 3dB on a dynamic and hear the performance smooth out.

More times than not, it's the quickest route from point "A" to point "B" without compromising.

[shaaregeulah]

There are also many famous vocalists that know their limits and shortcomings and, for that reason, they tend to stick to a specific mic that they know will give them that "pro sound" by masking whatever issues they normally struggle with that might be more prevalent in a more accurate mic. Lots of singers come to the studio with their own mic in hand.

[Hey... just noticed I popped my top contributor cherry. That means that I officially know everything and no one can ever argue with me again... no one... EVER!]

[Phil (Diddy) Combs]

It's not a "broadcasting" mic -- It's a mic. A fantastic vocal mic (IMO) which I choose to use probably 90% of the time for vocal applications (over 414's, over U87's, over TLM103's, over pretty much anything)

Hey I have alot to learn here...that said....from what I've read...I've learned that in audio....you PAY for quality..and I do understand what you said here massive...I do understand the advantages/differences in these mics....but I just CAN'T wrap my head (for the lack of a better idiom) around the thought of putting down a $4,000 mic and reaching for a $350...just can't do it...I'm trying...but I can't...

[MASSIVE Mastering]

With a lot of stuff, you really do get what you pay for - But think of it this way... $500 (list) is a pretty good chunk for a LDD...

[Weasel9992]

Hey I have alot to learn here...that said....from what I've read...I've learned that in audio....you PAY for quality..and I do understand what you said here massive...I do understand the advantages/differences in these mics....but I just CAN'T wrap my head (for the lack of a better idiom) around the thought of putting down a $4,000 mic and reaching for a $350...just can't do it...I'm trying...but I can't...

Well, the fact is that it happens all the time. Coldplay, Metallica, Oasis, STP....dozens and dozens of other bands, all recorded vocals on major records with an SM7. Of course, that's only one part of a stellar chain, but there you have it.

Frank