Rap Vocal Recording Setup Advice

[MindKontrol]

Hi,

First off I'm not strictly a total newbie - I have a rough knowledge of recording music having made an album in a pretty good studio (had like a Rode NTK, nice mic booth, huge mixing desk, nice compessor and good pc with nice soundcard [would like to have been more specific here lol but I dont know the model numbers of anything else - my main point is it was adequate for my purposes]), I also have a good ear for music and know what kind of sound I would like... I want my vocals sounding warm but consistent without being too sibilant (we had big problems with the esses during the mix and master cos although the overall quality was very nice the vocals were just too sibilant - something to do with the compressor im guessing?)

However, I'm lookin to invest in my own studio pretty much strictly for recording rap/singing and any other vocals but mainly rapping (can be quite loud and venomous lol). However, I would like the option of perhaps expanding it so I could add in a nice midi keyboard and record electro-classical and electric guitars for making hip-hop beats in the future - a few years down the line. But first and foremost the vocal recording is by far the most important and the entire reason for my setup!

My problem is that although I know by ear what sound I am striving for there are so many products on the market and different kinds of setups that I'm confused as to what would be the very best option for me!

I need a good solid professional sound that I can send to my engineer to be mixed and mastered professionally, but the main thing is that the raw vocals sound real nice. In the future I may want to expand my setup so that I can mix and master myself.

I was thinking along the lines of around a £300 condensor mic, a compressor, an external USB sound card (maybe something like Edirol ua25), would people advise I get a small mixing desk? especially if I'm looking to record guitars and add midi keyboards later on or is this really necessary, also I'd like to add in some monitor speakers of course.

If I had £1000 ($2000) what would be the best move to get some nice clean, (not too sibilant), warm potentially loudly recorded rap vocals?! Am I thinking along the right lines? :S

Also I would like to maybe add a mic booth into my setup depending on practical circumstances but initially the setup would have to be boothless... what should I do about small patches of acoustic foam to absorb certain sounds? I've seen people put them behind the mic...

Apologies for the essay! - I just want to get this right! Because its a hell of a lot of money for me and the quality has to be real nice to satisfy the fussy ear!

Thanks for reading, I look forward to hearing some responses!

Peace

[mtdavey11]

Step 1: Read the guide - http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm
Step 2: Repeat
Step 3: Determine the components you are going to purchase and cruise their respective forums to determine the best product that fits your needs.

Hint: The folks here will probably recommend that you get a mic, pre, interface, monitors, and acoustic treatment. As far as a compressor goes, you might try one of the less expensive plugs as opposed to a hardware comp. Maybe check out the Voxengo line.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

No doubt there. Keep the input chain as clean as possible.

Broken record mode: A Shure SM7b and a True P-Solo or Grace 101 is going to take you a long, long way for around $1k total. A bunch of the rest of that $$$ can be used for broadband traps.

the vocals were just too sibilant - something to do with the compressor im guessing?

99.99% of sibilance issues are from the vocalist - Not the gear. The gear can either be flattering of it (like a SM7b through a good preamp) or accentuate it harshly (like most LDC's through questionable preamps or with compromised gain staging from inserting unnecessary dynamics controls into the input stage - Try de-essing a compressed signal some time). But if the sibilance is there and it's an issue, it's best corrected with proper vocal technique.

[MindKontrol]

ayo so leme get this straight...

the chain should be something like:

condensr mic > pre-amp > compressor > External sound card > Laptop > Back through Sound Card > Monitors ??

as a general guide?

if I get the Edirol UA-25, it says it can provide phantom power... so surely that should mean i can go:

condenser mic > edirol ua25 > compressor > Laptop > edirol ua25 > monitors ?

im just trying to get the logistics of it down! Even though i mentioned i may be recording electric guitars and keyboards in the future, they will always be individualy not simultaneously... so will that chain above suffice?^

and so your syaing I should maybe just use a software compressor as well instead of hardware...?

thanks

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Mic -> Preamp -> Interface. Everything at unity, pre-gain levels to give you a signal somewhere at or below 0dBVU (which will equate to around -18dBFS) maybe occasionally peaking upwards of -12dBFS on the really loud parts. It's that simple.

If you want to use a condenser, go right ahead (many, if not most people who have experience with large-diaphragm dynamics would probably make it their first choice in most cases. But marketing departments are pushing condensers lately for some odd reason). If you really feel the need to screw up the gain stage in the front end and risk overdriving the input chain by having a compressor in there, that's up to you. Again, most would highly recommend against it unless you know exactly what you're looking for and somewhat precisely your gain staging. Assuming you're lacking there at this point, I'd very highly recommend against it. Otherwise, you'll be just one of hundreds and hundreds that "go ahead and do it all anyway" and then come back complaining about how their vocals "don't sound like 'pro' vocals."

(EDIT) Man, I sound jaded... My apologies for that. It's just the "over and over and over" of this situation...

[Tenderfoot]

For starters you don't need a external or physical preamp. You can do your compression later on, on your PC. This method is better as compression is reversible and can therefore be corrected to a preferable
level taht fits in with the mix.

I recommend you don't go for using the mixer's or soundcard's preamp as you don't know how much the manufacturer spent on the Preamp. The mixer could be worth £200 whilst the manufacturer spent £5 on the preamp and more on the rest. Therefore its best to spend money on a quality preamp. in addition do note a mic is only as good as the preamp driving it, a crap mic can sound wonderfull on a good preamp whilst a good mic will sound crap on a crap preamp.

mic --- preamp --- soundcard

soundcard --- monitors

For A £1000.


Microphone

A mic is a quite personal thing, people's voice sound different good or bad on different mics as people's voices are different it terms of frequencies
their voices fall in. With that said, there are certain mics which people's voices tend to sound good on. Hence the Recommended list fro mics to check out. It's important to note that condensers are not necessarily the best mics.
With a good preamp and good dynamic mic, one can dowonders with vocals Dynamic microphones are in no way inferior to condensers on vocals, remember this

I recommend you consider the followong mics or if posible audition them
before you purchase. I believe you can do mic audition at Turnkey in Tottenham Court Road Central london.

Shure KSM44 £570/Shure KSM32 £422
AKG C414 £464
Heil PR40 £159:Don't be mislead by the price its a really good mic
Shure SM7 £460
Electrovoise RE20 £346
Audio Technica AT4047 £337

I personally own and use the Shure KSM44, i love it! Its trasnparent!
The difference between the Shure KSM32 and KSM44 is that the KSM32
is only cardiod whilst teh KSM44 is a multi patterned microphone, you have the option of either cardiod, omni etc
Heres a rap artist who uses the Shure KSM32 http://www.myspace.com/dzk

Preamp

A mic is only as good as the preamp. You need a good preamp in order for you
not waste you mics potential.

DAV BG1 £479 : Really clean , i own it, i love it. Its made in the UK.
FMR RNP £338 : Another good preamp, made in the US.

Sound Card
Get something decent. Things to look out for:
Make sure its a 24bit/192khz or 24bit/96Khz soundcard, the first is better.
Make sure it has ASIO.

Example:
M-audio Audiophile 192 USB soundcard etc

[MindKontrol]

whatup...

yeah I see most other rap based setups using a condensor so I'ma proly stick with that!

haha no need to apologise... must be frustrating when you got the knowledge but people keep askin gthese super basic questions (believe me I know the feeling in other fields!)...

I'm about to hit you with some stupid questions so get ready haha!:

Whats the diff between: dBFS and dBVU ?

I think I'll pass on the compressor haha... most people say that if needs be I should just use a software compressor on whatever program im using to record. Im currently most familiar with Adobe Audition although we previously recorded on Cubase... what program do you recommend I use, or do you think audition will be adequate...?

I definitely wont just 'go ahead' im getting lots off diff opinions before I jump into anything! cos I want this sounding nice - its very important it sounds good.. and actually good! lol

Went into quite a good shop today to get some additional advice... they said I can just go:

Condensor > Edirol UA25 > Laptop > Edirol UA25 > Monitors

because the edirol is a preamp as well as an interface...

Im gonna leave out the compressor until I've got more knowledge on the topic later down the line if its necessary... Im concerned about totally ruling ou the possibility tho cos it says on the guide:

'An important tip for those going mixerless:
Before you buy an audio interface with built-in preamps
consider if you will ever want to add a compressor.
If you think you will, make sure the audio interface
has inserts or sends. If it does not, there will be no
way to add a compressor to the rig without buying yet
another preamp.'

S does the Edirol UA25 have inserts and sends... and what are they? inputs and outputs?? (another stupid question im sure!
http://www.roland.com/products/en/ua-25/

I got a list of potential mics... i'll post it in the mics room as well:

Rode K2
BLUE Blue Bird
AKG c414B

Also the monitors i was plannin on getting are:
Event TR8
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/product/event- ... tors-pair/

my friend has them^ in a setup with the edirol ua25 and the sound is real nice...

-----

Although I was also recommended in the shop to go for...

KRK RP8
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/product/krk-rp ... or-single/

----

what are peoples thoughts?

thanks for all the help - its very much appreciated!

Peace!

[MindKontrol]

oops just posted this above message without seeing the latest one from BigChips!

i'll have a read now homi!

thanks!

[Tenderfoot]

No problem fam

The Three 6 mafia used a AKG C414 on one of their singles forgot which one.

Monitors are again a very personal thing,with that said, you've got two options. One, buy a pair now or save up and buy later. With that said considering your budget heres a list of monitors to consider:


Adam A7s £400
The KRK RP8 £360
Tannoy Reveals 5a £200
Behringer TRUTH B2031A £240:These monitors are generally not liked here,
with that said i know people who produce quality stuff and world swear on these monitors. At the end of teh day, the important thing is to learn your monitors, no monitor is perfect, or at leat none that i know of.

After purchasing all this, you'll then worry about two things Monitor isolation [mounting them on stands or pads eg Auralex Pads ] and Room treatment, the later being the most important.

[MindKontrol]

aite... so from readin the general plan should be suttin like this:

Mic > Preamp > Soundcard > Laptop

I'ma leave out monitors for now cos theyre not really essential... rather get the other stuff and wait to get them a little later. I mean the sound my boy was getting out his edirol and the event tr8s was tight... but ima have to look into that more.... It is important I get some though because I need to listen to the mixes n masters I receive with the truest sound I can deal with for my cash.

the thing u mentioned about the edirol could have a crap preamp seems to make sense... i definitely dont wana b wasting the mics potential foreal so ima have to get a good preamp and check out tryin some diff ones out.... not sure if turnkey still do that auditioning... be useful tho!mic sound is very important to me... i want it warm n clean! surely though unless im getting the preamp the mics are setup with for the auditioning Im not actually getting an idea of what its gona sound like for me tho? although I spose it lets me compare between mics....

the problem with all this ish is obviously different combos of equipment clearly work better than others and its impossible to tell how anythings gonna sound until u buy it haha and I dont have the dough to be making bad decisions here!

daam this ish is complicated... im so confused now lol

just gonna keep gathering advice and try to come to some decisions along the way!

thanks for the help b,
peace

[MindKontrol]

i've decided with the monitors its a toss up between:

Event TR8's and KRK RP8's

read a few peoples comparisons on them seems the rp8s are generally prefered but ima try hear them both before I rush into anything!

That DAV BG1 seems to have got an amazing review here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/a ... icsbg1.htm

pretty dam expensive tho! lol gonna look into it tho cos if its worth it then its worth it!

No idea what ima do about the soundcard really!

gotta find a way of testing out some mics...

also how do I go about dealing wit acoustic treatment and broadband traps?!

peace

[MindKontrol]

just had an idea...

if I bought the Edirol UA25 and a nice like £350 mic... I could test that setup out and then if i felt the preamp wasnt cutting it then surely I could just use it as my soundcard?!

that way I wouldn't be spending way more money than I would have too.. having said that i dont want to skimp if its gonna mean that the setups crap then im not gonna do that! lol

jus a thought any way!

[Tenderfoot]

Buy Cheap buy twice.

It's your choice. I told you whats recommended and teh reason why.
You soundcard preamp for £200 won't beat a DAV BG1s preamp or a M-Audio DMP3's preamp.
You have to understand that you don't know how much the manufacturer for your soundcard spent on the preamp. Hence its better to have a select recording chain.

I'ld save up buy thigns step by step if its too much.
It's up to you. With that said its important to note its not what you use
rather how you use it. For example a friend of mine www.myspace.com/begottensun uses a

Behringer B1|£61 --- Focusrite Trackmaster Pro|£160 --- M-Audio 192|£80
M-Audio 192 --- Behringer Truths|£240

Yet listen to the quality of his vocals.

http://www.myspace.com/itskarizma
Barrist by Karizma was recorded with the same setup.

Re-accessing you budget heres what i would buy:


Recording Chain

Pop Filter --- Behringer B1/Heil PR40/AKG C414/Shure KSM44 --- M-Audio DMP3/FMR RNP/DAV BG1

Soundcard --- Behringer Truths B2031A/ KRK RP8

With About £1000

Se Electronics Pop Filter|£35 --- Shure KSM44|£570 --- M-Audio DMP3|£100
SoundCard|£100 --- Behringer Truths|£246

Cables
If you get the DMP3. Try and keep the TS to TS cable from the DMP3 as short as possible i.e 1m.
Headphones
AKG K77|£25 Closed back Headphones
A mic Stand


I'ld use s duvet to put behind my mic to get dead vocals.
You can also make your own pop filter using wire and pulling sox.

Fam stay away from the all in one soundcard solution you'll find yourself buying a new preamp a few montsh later.

I've done my part.It's Your Choice.

[MindKontrol]

foreal

i think ima deal with the DAV because it seems to have ridiculously good reviews. Every single thread or link I check someones goin on about how amazing it is lol even tho it looks like it was made in the 70s haha

I'll proly go for a 192 soundcard as well n have a look around.

Only thing im concerned about really is finding a nice mic that I like the sound of... have no idea how ima try em out tho!

thanks for ya help b

peace

[Tenderfoot]

Its your first mic, it may not be the last mic you ever buy, go for what you can afford and what seems to be the bang of the buck. I sent you links to rappers who use a Behringer B1 £70 and a focouristic preamp and a link to a person who uses a Shure KSM32 and mixer's preamp.

As a rapper, i believe what you're after is trsnparency. What you put in is what you get. The mics i recommended to you are quite trasnparent. And all stand well amongst vocal mics.

Behringer B1 £70| Condenser
Heil PR40 £159|Dyanamic
Audio Technica AT4047 £337|Condenser
Shure SM7 £460|Dyanamic
Electrovoice RE20 £492|Dynamic
AKG C414 £459
Shure KSM32 £440/Shure KSM44 £570

Where ever you go and they mention vocals, i bet either of those mics will be mentioned. Thats because they are good mics. Its a matter of what you can afford and what you prefer. Eitherway, with a DAV and good mixing as well as recording at the right levels you are bound to get good results.

If you can't audition, do what i did. Listen to mic audition or tracks which where made the mic you want to purchase. Its not the best thing to do. But its better than nothing. Thats what i did and ended up getting the Shure KSM44 and i love it.

[thapharmacy]

[deleted post ]

[thapharmacy]

[deleted post]

You know I use to shop at zzsounds.com ..... thanks for being such nazi's I will not shop their again. Maybe I should even send back my most recent purchase!

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Zzounds links only please...

[thapharmacy]

Oh sorry no problem, I'll edit links for the products that zzsounds is selling.

[nitten]

Oh sorry no problem, I'll edit links for the products that zzsounds is selling.

You can't link to other store's even if Zzound sells the product in question (ie still need to remove the amazon link).
You can link to manufacture's site instead or find a similar product that Zzound does sell.
Also no need to double post, but i guess that's just a glitch .

[thapharmacy]

Oh sorry no problem, I'll edit links for the products that zzsounds is selling.

You can't link to other store's even if Zzound sells the product in question (ie still need to remove the amazon link).
You can link to manufacture's site instead or find a similar product that Zzound does sell.
Also no need to double post, but i guess that's just a glitch .

You know I will just delete my posts, my account, and go ahead and send back my most recent purchase from zzsounds.com
Nice to know I have made 5 posts total on my account and I am already being censored!

I will never buy another product from zzsounds good to know this. Wish I had know it before I never would have purchase anything from them.

[nitten]

You know I will just delete my posts, my account, and go ahead and send back my most recent purchase from zzsounds.com
Nice to know I have made 5 posts total on my account and I am already being censored!

I will never buy another product from zzsounds good to know this. Wish I had know it before I never would have purchase anything from them.

The rules are the rules, Zzounds are sponsoring this forum and thus keeping it open.
You can still take about other stores, just not link to them, that's the rules.
If the forum doesn't keep the terms Zzound can cancel their sponsorship and this forum would most likely die, i don't want that to happen do you?
Also when you registered you said you would follow the rules of the forum, you should have read them before hand and then decide whether or not it was something you could/want to do.