Recording Drums using 3 Sure 57's and a 52 some advice plz!

[minks]

Hey! So I wanna record some drums at this venue. Acoustically speaking, not the best, its a pretty large room with not too much being done in terms of sound treatment.

Anyway, I recorded this and need some tips if I can get some please!

The kick doesn't have so much body in it, and I cannot for some reason capture the body, just the thump. Any ideas?

The drums also sound like they have been recorded on my laptop mic! haha they just sound a little distant. I have a mic placed at the snare, and two overheards placed in a non stereo X-Y manner, but they are making the snare sound far and everything else sounds a little attackless if that makes sense.

Maybe you would disagree though!

Any path I need to follow?

Here is a recording sample (only 4 mb )


http://www.sendspace.com/file/zdxfps

[Cauterized]

Take your overheads and put them in an actual stereo x-y configuration and center it on your snare. On your snare mic if it sounds distant or hollow, try inverting phase and see if it helps or you can try and place a 5-10ms delay. As far as your bass drum, if you got stuffing in it, take some out. If not, you can play around with a high pass filter to mitigate thud and try a 1 or 2k boost on eq and see if it will give it body. Another idea since you are in such a large and ambient room, is if you got another mic handy put it about 20 feet away and compress the snot out of it, then blend in to the miced kit with moderation.

As you can see it can be a lot of trial and tweaking to get it sounding just right. Just play around with it till you are seeing progress and build on it.

[Big Tim]

It's actually not too bad a sound for a 3-mic setup, though you can hear the fact that you're using SM57's as overheads. You will by default capture a more roomy sound because you have no close mics.

I would recommend going for a Recorderman setup with a kick mic. This is done with 2 overheads: one directly over the snare, 2 drumstick heights up, pointing straight down at the snare, the second mic also 2 stick heights away pointing at the snare from behind the drummer's right shoulder, sort of over the floor tom-ish. Then add a kick mic in whatever position works for you - could be a little way out the front of the kick, could be right inside. (you're supposed to check their exact positions for phase with a piece of string.)

Check my sig for the 2- and 3-mic setups for sound clip examples and check YouTube for the original Recorderman video.

Before all that though, make sure your kit is well tuned and ensure that your levels are are appropriate - no signals peaking over -6db. You could try hanging some rugs or throws around the kit to help reduce the roominess.

[minks]

Take your overheads and put them in an actual stereo x-y configuration and center it on your snare. On your snare mic if it sounds distant or hollow, try inverting phase and see if it helps or you can try and place a 5-10ms delay. As far as your bass drum, if you got stuffing in it, take some out. If not, you can play around with a high pass filter to mitigate thud and try a 1 or 2k boost on eq and see if it will give it body. Another idea since you are in such a large and ambient room, is if you got another mic handy put it about 20 feet away and compress the snot out of it, then blend in to the miced kit with moderation.

As you can see it can be a lot of trial and tweaking to get it sounding just right. Just play around with it till you are seeing progress and build on it.

I set the overheads exactly the way you described and it eliminated a lot of the revereb! I used a string to measure the mic's distances from the snare in order to avoid phase disturbance (i have no phase invert switch on my mixer) ...

I boosted the highs of my kick drum and that gave it a little more character, as you said its a matter or trial and error with placement....


I honestly appreciate your help...

[minks]

It's actually not too bad a sound for a 3-mic setup, though you can hear the fact that you're using SM57's as overheads. You will by default capture a more roomy sound because you have no close mics.

I would recommend going for a Recorderman setup with a kick mic. This is done with 2 overheads: one directly over the snare, 2 drumstick heights up, pointing straight down at the snare, the second mic also 2 stick heights away pointing at the snare from behind the drummer's right shoulder, sort of over the floor tom-ish. Then add a kick mic in whatever position works for you - could be a little way out the front of the kick, could be right inside. (you're supposed to check their exact positions for phase with a piece of string.)

Check my sig for the 2- and 3-mic setups for sound clip examples and check YouTube for the original Recorderman video.

Before all that though, make sure your kit is well tuned and ensure that your levels are are appropriate - no signals peaking over -6db. You could try hanging some rugs or throws around the kit to help reduce the roominess.

Much obliged... thats a great setup, but I have a problem, there is no room for a stand behind the drummer, he is literally against the wall... X-Y overheads is working a lot better now...

your string technique is genius for phasing!

[Big Tim]

your string technique is genius for phasing!

I can't take the credit for it - not only is it in the recorderman video, but using a tape measure to ensure phase alignment is no new thing.

I would try and get the drummer away from the wall a bit, not least because you'll be getting stronger reflections off the wall which will negatively affect the recording. Just moving him 2 feet further away will help, and would allow you to get the mic for a Recorderman setup behind him. X-Y works to a certain extent but you will get a better overall sound from a Recorderman. X-Y is really designed to capture mainly the overheads with the assumption that the other drums will be close-miked, and the balance of drums vs cymbals in it is not as strong. The kick drum in particular will be almost non-existent in an X-Y setup because the waves fire parallel to the mics, not into them. Using a Recorderman (or Glyn Johns, very similar) setup gives a better spread of the drums Vs the cymbals.

[minks]

your string technique is genius for phasing!

I can't take the credit for it - not only is it in the recorderman video, but using a tape measure to ensure phase alignment is no new thing.

I would try and get the drummer away from the wall a bit, not least because you'll be getting stronger reflections off the wall which will negatively affect the recording. Just moving him 2 feet further away will help, and would allow you to get the mic for a Recorderman setup behind him. X-Y works to a certain extent but you will get a better overall sound from a Recorderman. X-Y is really designed to capture mainly the overheads with the assumption that the other drums will be close-miked, and the balance of drums vs cymbals in it is not as strong. The kick drum in particular will be almost non-existent in an X-Y setup because the waves fire parallel to the mics, not into them. Using a Recorderman (or Glyn Johns, very similar) setup gives a better spread of the drums Vs the cymbals.

I placed a mic on the snare, XY mics as overheads, a mic for the kick, and a mic to the right shoulder of the drummer, equidistant to the XY mics from the snare and kick.

Is that a good setup?

[Big Tim]

I placed a mic on the snare, XY mics as overheads, a mic for the kick, and a mic to the right shoulder of the drummer, equidistant to the XY mics from the snare and kick.

Is that a good setup?

In some respects it's fine, but everytime you bring a close mic into play you are reducing the reliance on the overheads. That means that if there is anything in the overheads that you don't close mic, it will be pushed down in relation to the close mics, in this case the snare. If you can get a balance in the overheads of everything more-or-less equally, you'll be in a better position. That's where the recorderman technique is really useful - it naturally has a good balance of the snare, toms and cymbals, meaning you don't need to close mic any of them. However if you can spend the time getting the balance of all the parts of the kit in the XY setup then it'll be fine.

I would really try and get the recorderman working. Can your drum kit face the other way so you can get the other mics around it?

[minks]

In some respects it's fine, but everytime you bring a close mic into play you are reducing the reliance on the overheads. That means that if there is anything in the overheads that you don't close mic, it will be pushed down in relation to the close mics, in this case the snare. If you can get a balance in the overheads of everything more-or-less equally, you'll be in a better position. That's where the recorderman technique is really useful - it naturally has a good balance of the snare, toms and cymbals, meaning you don't need to close mic any of them. However if you can spend the time getting the balance of all the parts of the kit in the XY setup then it'll be fine.

I would really try and get the recorderman working. Can your drum kit face the other way so you can get the other mics around it?

What you say is making a lot of sense... but what do I do with the extra mic? the only reason i am close micing the snare is coz the room has a little bit of reverb so i wanna try compensating by close micing...

what do you mean have my drum kit face the other way?

cheers

[redheadbass]

I would really try and get the recorderman working. Can your drum kit face the other way so you can get the other mics around it?

If you can't get a stand behind the drummer, you can use a boom stand to the side or front and put the mic in the same position.
I've used one kick mic and one OH with pretty decent results. Placement is the big deal. I've always preferred close miking everything, but a drummer friend showed me the two mic technique, and I use it in a pinch. Recorderman is superior.

[minks]

I would really try and get the recorderman working. Can your drum kit face the other way so you can get the other mics around it?

We have a live gig last night... we recorded stuff using the X-Y pattern and you are right, we really weren't able to capture the rides well.. it worked last time coz we only had to rides, but since the drummer brought in more rides, the recording sounded weak...

but if i do the recorderman, what shall I do with my 4th mic? (considering one is for the kick, one is two drumsticks above the snare, and one comes in from behind the drummer)

[Big Tim]

but if i do the recorderman, what shall I do with my 4th mic? (considering one is for the kick, one is two drumsticks above the snare, and one comes in from behind the drummer)

you could still put it on the snare, maybe underneath the snare, but the point with the recorderman is that you don't need tat snare mic full stop. The two overheads is often enough, although I usually find the kick mic is also necessary. So the snare mic doesn't need to be used on the drums. However, make a recording and see if anything is a bit weak (snare, floor tom, whatever), and maybe use it on that.

Take care with phase on the recorderman too - sometimes the kick can be out of phase with the overheads, especailly if you put it a few feet in front of the kick rather than up close or inside.

I didn't realise this tied with your "PA feedback" thread. I take it you're using this setup to record your gig?

[minks]

I didn't realise this tied with your "PA feedback" thread. I take it you're using this setup to record your gig?

yup... its a live gig and the room is pretty spacy so the closer the mics, the better, thats why i need at least 1 snare mic and two overheads. no?

[redheadbass]

I didn't realise this tied with your "PA feedback" thread. I take it you're using this setup to record your gig?

yup... its a live gig and the room is pretty spacy so the closer the mics, the better, thats why i need at least 1 snare mic and two overheads. no?

I'd put it under the snare.

[minks]

Which technique would be best to record live drums at a spacy venue then? Surely, something that captures too much room is a no-no here... there must be a technique that captures closely the different sounds using only 4 mics... Is the recorder man the best for such a situation? X-Y only seems to capture sounds if I don't have too many rides, I need a well rounded sound.. what about the Glyn Johns method for a spacy room?

[Big Tim]

Which technique would be best to record live drums at a spacy venue then? Surely, something that captures too much room is a no-no here... there must be a technique that captures closely the different sounds using only 4 mics... Is the recorder man the best for such a situation? X-Y only seems to capture sounds if I don't have too many rides, I need a well rounded sound.. what about the Glyn Johns method for a spacy room?

The "Glyn Johns" is very similar to the Recorderman, basically the same but tends to use slightly more widely spaced mics, so is an even more roomy sound. But the Recorderman is a pretty good technique for dryer sounds as the mics are quite close to the drums.

The problem is quite simple. To capture a number of drums equally with only one or two mics, you need to pull the mics back from the kit so that the individual drums are equidistant from the mic. The closer the mic is to the kit, the closer it will be to some drums and further away it will be from others. So by pulling the mics back you will by default also capture more of the room. The only way to avoid it is to close-mic each drum so you rely less on the overheads, which you can't do with a small number of mics.

You do have one other option, which is to reduce the room sound reflections. You could do this by putting up gobos, hanging drapes from mics stands etc. Again, not really possible when you're recording a gig.

I think you're just going to have to accept that the environment you're recording in and the techniques you're forced to use is going to give you a fairly roomy sound. This will be covered over to some extent when you get the other instruments over it.

[minks]

The "Glyn Johns" is very similar to the Recorderman, basically the same but tends to use slightly more widely spaced mics, so is an even more roomy sound. But the Recorderman is a pretty good technique for dryer sounds as the mics are quite close to the drums.

The problem is quite simple. To capture a number of drums equally with only one or two mics, you need to pull the mics back from the kit so that the individual drums are equidistant from the mic. The closer the mic is to the kit, the closer it will be to some drums and further away it will be from others. So by pulling the mics back you will by default also capture more of the room. The only way to avoid it is to close-mic each drum so you rely less on the overheads, which you can't do with a small number of mics.

You do have one other option, which is to reduce the room sound reflections. You could do this by putting up gobos, hanging drapes from mics stands etc. Again, not really possible when you're recording a gig.

I think you're just going to have to accept that the environment you're recording in and the techniques you're forced to use is going to give you a fairly roomy sound. This will be covered over to some extent when you get the other instruments over it.

true that... ill just have to keep hopping back and forth between different techniques for different events..