Mastering Gear

[JTRAVERSE]

Hello all,

So my next addition to my recording studio is some mastering gear (software just ain't cutting it for me now).

I was thinking about getting these upgrades:

AD/DA CONVERTER:
Apogee Rosetta 800

ONE PARAMETRIC EQUALIZER:
- Manley Massive Passive Mastering EQ
- Chandler EMI TG12345 Curve Bender
- GML 8200
- Prism Sound Masalec MEA-2

ONE MULTI-BAND COMPRESSORS:
- Manley Stereo Variable Mu
- Prism Sound Masalec MLA-3
- Tube Tech SMC-2B

SPEAKERS:
Genelec 1032A Speakers


So I was looking for some suggestions on which choices to pick. I think the speakers and the rosetta are for sure, but for the compressor and eq, I have a choice, and I wanted to started with one each, and then add a couple more later.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

(BTW, I'm bringing the audio stereo out from my mac through the rosetta -> EQ -> compressor -> and back into the digital realm.)

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I'm going to go sideways on a lot of it...

Personally, I'd avoid multi-band compression. It's hardly ever useful anyway. Nice to "add to the barn" once there's a solid foundation. The Vari-Mu (which isn't a multi-band unit) is very nice, but again not what I'd consider an "anchor" unit. That and I'd avoid tubes if at all possible on those "anchor" pieces. Same with EQ's - The MP is a great unit, but it's one that you use "when you need it" as opposed to an every-day "go to" unit. Same with the Chandler - I won't go into my thoughts on the GML (but let's say that for such a celebrated unit, there were "issues" with them that I found unacceptable after using multiple units).

Here's where I start sounding like a Crane Song commercial - But for good reason.

Of everything I've ever had, everything I currently have, I could sell it all and just keep the Crane Song gear and not feel for one moment that I was wanting for something. The HEDD (converters), Ibis (EQ), STC-8 (compressor) and Avocet (monitoring controller) are by far the "go to" stuff. The Ibis can go from very transparent to very "colorful and groovy" - The STC8 is probably the most "perfect" compressor I've ever used. The HEDD is the most flexible converter set that I can imagine. Freakishly transparent when you need it, absurdly colorful (and infinitely controllable) when you want it.

I don't know if there's anything out there that'd sway me from the STC8... There are a few EQ's that are pretty nice though... The NSEQ2 is a great unit (once you rip out the tubes and install the Forsell board), GML's 9200 is nice (and the sides actually come close to matching, unlike the - oh, forget it...).

But the short of it: At least try the Crane Song stuff. Once you're done freaking out about how wonderful it all is, you can add more stuff to the collection (most of which will collect dust much of the time, but will come in handy occasionally).

[JTRAVERSE]

Hey John,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm sort of attracted to tube stuff because the music I record and mix are almost always old 60's to 70's covers, or other peoples music that closely relates to that old analog sound, and though I still love my Focusrite ISA428 preamps, I tend to pick out tube stuff first, probably shouldn't be as swayed by it though.

I will definitely check out the Crane Song stuff though. I didn't check it out originally because I usually buy all of my stuff through Long and McQuade here in Canada, and as far as I know, they can't get their hands on any of it, so I would have to look around a little before I could stumble upon Crane Song stuff.

Are their any others that I could keep my eye out for, John?

Thanks for your help, it's greatly appreciated.

[EnlightenedHand]

I wouldn't use the Rosetta for mastering. It's a good converter. But it's not a favorite of mine. I've heard the Crane Song HEDD and I have the Prism ADA 8xr and I think both are superior to the Rosetta; for different reasons though. The Prism is as clean and detailed as things get and the HEDD is as flexible as converters get in terms of sound character, while also able to be super clean.

Kind of a big leap to go into a serious investment in mastering gear eh?... What's your experience with it BTW?

[Weasel9992]

Kind of a big leap to go into a serious investment in mastering gear eh?... What's your experience with it BTW?

I was thinking the same thing. Plus the Genelec speakers aren't typical mastering gear. Lastly, all the gear in the world won't mean a thing unless the room is taken care of, and that's never more true than it is with mastering. So, what's the room like? Any treatment?

Frank

[JTRAVERSE]

Been recording for awhile now, just recently doing alot of upgrades to my home studio. I'm a student of Berkleemusic, doing the Master's Certificate in Music Production and Technology. I'm just tired of doing mastering with plug-ins, so I'm splurging on a $10,000 - $15,000 upgrade, especially for doing my mastering.

I'm in the process of moving into a new home, and my room will be acoustically treated properly.

A guy I know who did alot of mastering with Sony and down in Los Angeles with bands like Duran Duran, suggested the Adam A7's for a starting point for real nice monitors to do mastering. He also suggested the Apogee Ensemble with the Big Ben for the master clock, then a Manley Massive Passive Mastering EQ with a Manley ELOP limiter or an Avalon VT747sp.

I'm not trying to get a state of the art system, but rather a starting point without spending $20,000 +.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Julian

[EnlightenedHand]

My thoughts are that the most important thing to concern yourself with in any real mastering situation is the monitoring; a great loudspeaker system in a great room. The rest of the stuff is important after that. If you can have great monitoring then you'll have the opportunity to have great masters. Without great monitoring, it's almost a waste to get great hardware. But the tweaking will be much more productive if you have an accurate monitoring system and room. So I wouldn't support the recommendation of the A7 for real mastering work.

If you really want to get an idea of what to do to get into mastering the effective way you might study the book Mastering Audio The Art and the Science, by Bob Katz.

[Weasel9992]

My thoughts are that the most important thing to concern yourself with in any real mastering situation is the monitoring; a great loudspeaker system in a great room. The rest of the stuff is important after that.

Totally agree. Personally I think think the A7's aren't in the right league; you're really looking at a much higher-end monitoring chain. The room has got to be very, very good as well. Your typical domestic room may have too many problems (even after treatment) to be useful. Can you tell me what kind of room you're expecting to wind up in?

Frank

[shaaregeulah]

I'm just tired of doing mastering with plug-ins, so I'm splurging on a $10,000 - $15,000 upgrade, especially for doing my mastering.

Invest it all in the room and your monitoring.

Proper monitoring environment/chain + Mastering Plugins = A good start

Improper monitoring environment/chain + boutique gear = A waste of money

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Word (to the peeps).

You could probably find a set of used N802's and the "big" Rotel (1080?) for under $6k. That'll take you *sooo* much farther than *any* piece of hardware ever will.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a hardware nut. But the first and most crucially important hardware is the monitoring chain. I can work with plugs if I need to - I can't do [SELF-CENSORED] without the right speakers.

[JTRAVERSE]

Hey everyone,

Thanks so much for all the replies, it's greatly appreciated.

Maybe I could ask some questions??

1. Are loudspeakers with amps necessary? Or are there nice active monitors that will do the trick?

2. What sorts of acoustic treatments should one look at for mastering?

CRUDE EXAMPLE OF ROOM:

I know "acoustical disaster". This room is all open. Estimated 12' horizontal x 20' vertical.
The block of 0's the upper area is the area where my equipment will be. The dotted regions are open space. EVERYTHING is open. No walls inside the room.

Please keep in mind I don't want to compete with Sony studios . Any suggestions??

____________________________________________________
|000000000000000000000000| ...................................| <-----------Door
|000000000000000000000000| ............................. ..._|
|000000000000000000000000| .............................. |
|000000000000000000000000| .............................. |___
|000000000000000000000000| .................................. |
|000000000000000000000000| ................................ | <--------------Random Nook
|000000000000000000000000| .................................. |
|000000000000000000000000| ................................. |
|-------------------------| .........................._____|
| ............................................................................|
| .............................................................................. | <---------------Door to Entrance
| .............................................................................. |
|.............................................................................|
|.............................................................................|
|.............................................................................|
|.............................................................................| <------------------From door down is home entertainment system and sofa.
|.............................................................................|
|.............................................................................|
|_________________________________________________|

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I'd hope it's just showing incorrectly - But if it is, the last place you want to be is in a corner - Don't even bother.

Active speakers... Barefoot MM27's. Otherwise, I'm not a fan of most powered speakers - I'm much too picky about the amplification. You can put a Bryston 4B on a pair of B&W M-802's and it'll sound great. Put that same amp on a pair of N-802's and the high end will sound fuzzy and disjointed.

There are some other good actives - PMC makes a few, etc. But I'd rather have the control.

Otherwise - Room setup is going to be absolutely critical. Nothing should be in the corners (except for a lot of broadband trapping).

There's a "dumbed down" basic room setup rant (along with links to much more specific information) here if you're bored: http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/ht ... _Setup.php

[JTRAVERSE]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll check out that link.

Also, I'm obviously not going to be starting with tons and tons of gear. What's your opinion on using a Avalon VT747sp till later where I can get a better one, and use the 747 for recording only? Also should I change my audio interface setup? Currently have the MOTU 828mkIII. Should I add some great converters? or maybe the Apogee Ensemble will be a nice upgrade for now?

Thanks for all the help!

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Eh... The 747 is sort of like having a SSL4000G comp. They're nice to have, but they don't get used much. The EQ isn't adjustable, but has an almost Pultec-like quality in the top end (again, handy occasionally). The compressor isn't the most transparent thing going... It's nice as a channel-strip processor, but I wouldn't tie up the bucks in something that isn't going to see much action (hence why I'm always pushing the Crane Song stuff, which rarely ever gets turned off if I'm in the room).

The converters are going to be a big deal. Me? I didn't care for the Apogee (you won't find an awful lot of mastering facilities that use them for that matter). Crane Song, Lavry, Benchmark (at least the DA), Prism - All pretty popular tags.

[JTRAVERSE]

Hmmm I see.

Well, since you seem to have the most mastering experience here, would you suggest some real nice EQs and Compressors (other than Crane)? That way I have a choice.
Also, I'm aware of the Massive Passive, Variable Mu from Manley...and the Chandler EMI T12345 (which looks nice as well)

I'll take a look at the converters and the loudspeaker ASAP.

Also, for compression, I like coloured sound, that warm analog is a must have in my studio! The only solid state outboard gear I swear by is the ISA 428.

Thanks alot,
JTRAVERSE

[MASSIVE Mastering]

The "warm analog" part is easy - But "warm analog" doesn't come from tubes (ask any API, Great River, Amek, Neve, Langevin, etc., etc., etc., etc. user).

The Millennia NSEQ2 is very nice (once you rip the tubes out of it and put the Forsell board in). The API 5500 EQ / 2500 compressor are wonderful - But again, not "anchor" pieces by any means (but if you want "color" the 2500 is a decent unit, as is the 5500 EQ). I used Great River's mastering unit (2NV?) for a bit - Very nice. No Ibis, but if I needed another EQ, I wouldn't have any bones about it.

[Weasel9992]

2. What sorts of acoustic treatments should one look at for mastering?

Symmetry at the listening position is critical, so the first thing I'd do is flip everything around so that you're facing the opposite wall (what would be the back of the room in your plan). You'll need floor to ceiling corner trapping in the front corners, 4" panels on the front wall, 4" panels on the ceiling, 6" panels on the back wall and 2" panels at the reflection points to your right and left. You should also do the rear corners floor to ceiling with bass trapping if possible...hard to tell whether they're both unavailable given the diagram you posted.

Frank

[JTRAVERSE]

Alright.

So, here's what I have put together:

Monitoring: Barefoots or B&W's with a Bryston amp.
Audio Interface: Current MOTU 828mkIII for monitoring and hook up to AD/DA conversion.
AD/DA: Lavry Blue 2 ch. AD & 2 ch. DA http://vintageking.com/Lavry-2-Channel-A-D-and-D-A?sc=13&category=42849
EQ: Manley Massive Passive Mastering Version
Compressor: Manley Vari-Mu -OR- Crane Song STC??

I'll come two channels out from WaveBurner through the Motu, through the Lavry on 2 channels, through the compressor, then the EQ, and back through the Lavry on the other two channels?

Phew! How does that sound?

Plus acoustic treatment and proper positioning of everything.


EDIT: Also, thanks for the acoustic treatment tips Frank! Greatly appreciated.

[Weasel9992]

I'd strongly suggest the B&W's...the MM27's are great speakers, but every room I've ever treated with MM27's in it has had MASSIVE issues in the 30 and 40Hz region. I've come to the conclusion that it's simply because they reproduce every bit of that range as faithfully as a pair of speakers can, and that causes *painful* issues in your average domestic room even after treatment.

Frank

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Thoughts:

* The Motu wouldn't even be in the picture if the Lavry unit was in there -

Both the AD and DA have to be precisely calibrated to one another - I don't think the Motu even has the capability. It could certainly feed the monitoring controller...

* Bryston with certain B&W's are great. Bryston with other B&W's, not so great. Pick the amp that goes well with the speaker.

* The order of the chain is arguable...

[JTRAVERSE]

Thanks for the tip Frank! I'm gonna price the B&W's tomorrow!

Thanks John! I would need the MOTU as my recording audio interface and monitoring. So wouldn't I just connect the Lavry to the MOTU, the MOTU being the interface, and the Lavry for the AD/DA conversion? Forgive me if I'm not understanding you.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Ah - Digital connection only. Gotcha.

[JTRAVERSE]

Alright thanks for the help everyone.

So greatly appreciated!

[JTRAVERSE]

Actually, I was speaking with SonoTechnique today and they recommended the Prism Orpheus as a great alternative for a firewire audio interface and great converters all in one. Any thoughts?

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Actually, I was speaking with SonoTechnique today and they recommended the Prism Orpheus as a great alternative for a firewire audio interface and great converters all in one. Any thoughts?

Haven't had the pleasure of messing with one for any extended time frame, but have heard nothing but nice things about it. If you have to go FireWire, that's probably the way to go (a bit on the pricey side - but plenty of features).