Sm7

[Ray Sr.]

I will be recording Hip Hop vocals through the M-audio Tampa (preamp/compressor) My studio projects c1 is picking up too much of the room ambience so I want to use a dynamic mic. The store I am going to rent from doesn't carry the Electro Voice RE20 but they do carry the Shure SM7B & the Sennheiser MD421-II. Any thoughts on which one would be better for Low Range Hip Hop vocals? They also carry the AKG 414 which I've heard with Hip Hop vocals but I bet they were in a studio when they recorded. They also used an API preamp. Any reply would be appreciated.

[Dugz Ink]

My voice (radio broadcasting)makes speakers rattle, and the mics that make me sound the best are the 414 or the RE20... when they're backed up with sweet (i.e. $1,000+) mic-pres.

The 414 does need a good room, but I think you can use the RE20 in an un-finished house... as a hammer... then use it as a mic. (It's a friggin' truck with a microphonic pickup.)

I had problems with the SM7 mics; it was relatively easy for me to overdrive them either by getting too loud or too close. (I think you can actually ingest the RE20 and still not be too close to the element.)

I used a predecessor to the MD421 and wasn't impressed, but haven't wrapped my voice around one of the newer ones. I think Tweak has one... but I don't think his voice is in our range.

Did I mention that I like the RE20? But it needs a hot mic-pre.

[jar4ever]

The SM7 is popular for vocals and can be great. It really depends on your voice and the sound you are looking for. Studios have a large selection of mikes for a reason, so you can try different ones out for a particular situation. The RE-20, SM7, MD421, and C414 (and many many more) have all been used to great success on vocals of all kinds.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Big RE20 fan here... And the 27ND.

[Weasel9992]

I'm an SM7 fan, but the RE20 is great too. I've never had the issue Dugz is describing, but I've heard his voice and I can imagine that it might work that poor little mic element pretty hard.

Weez

[Ray Sr.]

Thanks ya'll,
I'll guess I'll rent all 3 (SM7, MD421 & 414) & see which works best for me. I plan to out an album this summer so I'm trying to get the best results for my budget. Hopefully my studio hook up will come through but I'm trying not to depend on it.

[nanashiwanderer]

You'll probably want a better pre than whats on the tampa for it the RE20 and SM7.

[Weasel9992]

Yeah, definitely. Remember that the dynamic mics are more dependant on having a great pre than their condensor counterparts.

Weez

[Ray Sr.]

Other than gain how are they more dependant?

[Weasel9992]

Dynamic mic + cheap pre=muddy and smeared.

Dynamic mic + great pre=accurate representation of the source.

A condensor, in a manner of speaking, makes up for the shortcomings of a cheap pre to an extent. What you'll notice about cheap pres though, is that their "cheapness" really starts to poke through at higher gain levels...they get worse as they get louder. Really great pres sound smooth and consistant even at the top of the gain scale (assuming perfectly consistant sources in both cases).

A dynamic mic, as you said, requires more gain in many cases. Your pre will show its true colors, whatever they may be.

I know this is an oversimplification...it's actually more complicated than I'm making it sound...there are a bunch of other factors in play. You get the point though.

Weez

[Ray Sr.]

Thanks, that totally makes sense. I'll give it a go & see what happens. If I can't get the dynamic mic to sound good I may just use the C414 & deal with the extra room ambience.

[nanashiwanderer]

If you can afford an C414 (1000$), why not invest into a better pre to beginwith first... Its an improvement for every mic you put through it.

An AKG C414, SM57, Electrovoice RE20, are all pretty much studio must haves. However, they never got these reputation from the pres in home studio interfaces. While the Tampa is good by home studio standards, it never was, or is a professional unit. Even with the AKG C414 while it might be a slight improvement, it won't be that big a difference over something like the solaris or nt1a through a pre like that.

http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewtop ... hlight=rnp

[Ray Sr.]

If you can afford an C414 (1000$), why not invest into a better pre to beginwith first... Its an improvement for every mic you put through it.

An AKG C414, SM57, Electrovoice RE20, are all pretty much studio must haves. However, they never got these reputation from the pres in home studio interfaces. While the Tampa is good by home studio standards, it never was, or is a professional unit. Even with the AKG C414 while it might be a slight improvement, it won't be that big a difference over something like the solaris or nt1a through a pre like that.

http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewtop ... hlight=rnp

I can't afford too much of anything these days. A store here in town rents out gear & that is the mic selection I have to choose from. They rent out Preamps as well but the best one they have is the Presonus ADL-600. I heard a sample clip that was recorded at
http://www.target-music.ch/studio/sounds.htm
But I wasn't very impressed. If I remember right I believe the Avalon M5 was the mic pre that sounded like my R&B CD collection.

[nanashiwanderer]

Why not rent the ADL6000 its miles ahead of the tampa. and clips tell you nothing if you haven't been in the source room, or see the source that was recording. _controlfreaks link is useful as referencing against other highend preamps, but all of those pres save maybe the brick, are well above the tampa's so its not easy to reference them to your source.

[Weasel9992]

The ADL-600 is actually a very nice pre. I think what your initial reaction may just be because you're not used to the sound of a high end preamp. Granted, the ADL-600 is more of a "character" kind of pre, compared to more sterile high end pre's, but it's still great. That pre combined with an SM7 oR an RE20 should produce some great results...provided your room doesn't shoot you in the foot.

Sample clips of pres and mics can only give you a very, very vague notion of what they actually sound like. If the ADL-600 is the only thing available to you, you'll like it. Set aside some time to futz with it though...you won't find the best sounds in the first 20 minutes. It'll take a few hours (maybe a day or two) to get your ears accustomed to what they're hearing...then you'll be more impartial.

Weez

[Ray Sr.]

Dang it! I'm confused now. I've been debating whether or not to sell this tampa anyway. Considering I do want the best quality I can get I'm willing to take a chance on the ADL-600 paired with the sm7, senn md421 or C414. Considering people here haven't led me wrong yet. What is a man to do?

[Weasel9992]

Take a look around at the reviews the ADL-600 gets...they're pretty strongly positive. It's a real tube pre, not a "toob" pre...it's in a whole different class than the Tampa.

If all you're doing is renting it, I think you'd be fine. Now, if you were putting down what amounts to about $2,500 on a new ADL and an SM7, then I'd advise you to be really sure that's what you wanted.

Weez

[nanashiwanderer]

are you talking about buying an AKG C414 after you've rented it...
or just renting it one time, thats what i'm confused about.

If your talking about buying an AKG C414 after renting it,
I think your money is better spent on a Grace 101, and Electrovoice RE20 or SM7.

If your just renting it one time for a project. Keep the tampa, but go ahead and rent the ADL and hear the mic for what its meant to be in all its glory.

[Goofy]

If you are satisfied with the mic you have got why not try a simple trick. Choose a corner of your room, take two matrasses and put them upright in that corner put the mike in the corner facing the room. Sing into the corner your vocals will not come back from the matrasses and therefore not into the room. I had the same trouble recording voice dubs for video, it works and just cost some effort, you have to make the bed again.
greetz from the Netherlands,
Lex.

[nanashiwanderer]

that was completley random. and matresses do nothing to absorb reflections.

[Weasel9992]

Yeah...you might want to read the string before you post.

Weez

[Ray Sr.]

LOL!
Thanks Goofy.
I'm going to rent this gear for a one time project. I bought the tampa because it was being sold for $185. I was going to rent the ADL-600 originally for $100/month, but I thought the tampa's quality wouldn't be that far from the ADL. So it only made sense to me to spend the $185 to own the tampa, especially since it's store price is approx $400.
My thinking has changed lately (past month or so). I started a label about 3 months ago (I'm currently the only artist) & want to run it efficiently. I'm trying to do everything the right way, yet stick to the budget. I've changed my major in school during my senior year, I'm up all hours reading both books & internet resources, etc. I thought I might be able to get away with using mediocre gear as long my mixing was okay. Then if I have it mastered by a good engineer (massive maybe), I'd have a good quality album. Because Hip Hop is pretty much all in the "Box" I figure as long as I can get a decent vocal sound at home I'll be okay for a while.
Well, now I've got other people wanting to be apart of what I'm doing so I'm thinking of selling my old gear & investing in quality gear. Until then I can rent & still have money to have the album Mastered, Promotion, Pressing, etc.
Any tips for this journey?

[nanashiwanderer]

if this isn't a professional project mixing can take you a really long way.
Dont get caught up in the gear trap. I've heard pretty darn good mixes on behringer mixers, and a lot of time and effort spent on mic placement, tracking. You won't get pro quality but you can get very good demo quality.

If anything i'd hold on to the tampa, its a good unit, before the rnp was out it would have been among the best pre in the under 500$ range.


I suggest you go into the juke box, and go to tweaks sound click page
go listen to some of his stuff dated before april of 2006, its really experimental so you may have mixed opinions of the music, but almost everything he recorded was done via a behringer mixer, with his best preamp the Voice master pro which is definiteley around the level of the tampa. I believe in some of the earlier mixes tweak was trying ot use foam for treatment too... There pretty good mixes

heres another guy that constintley amazes me with what gear he has at his disposable to what he does.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus ... dID=150644
go listen to the first song, thats done one of the top contributors who kind of dissapeared around the summer. He uses a behringer mixer, an very cheap Art tube preamp, has access couple of 300$ large diaphragm condensors, and has pretty much no proper acoustic treatment. The guitars i believe he usually uses a line 6 pod, 300$ monitors. He does have a good set of software and plugins Sonar and some waves plugins. The mix probably isn't perfect i can't hear on monitors i don't have them,and my ears aren't trained to critically critique mixes yet. HE does have a tendency to use a bit to much compression/limiting, but considering the gear... I'm amazed.

The second thing is don't rush. You have all the time in the world. Thats the point of a home studio. More than anything else, take time to learn the craft properly, the gear you have. Rushed tracking leads to problems. The convenience of home studios, is creative control you can lay downm an idea as soon as it hits, and you can take the time you need to do the song right. A highend home studio, like the one tweak has serves two fold purposes in that respect. You don't have to worry about going into a pro studio where your on the clock and being billed large sums of money for each hour you spend there, to give you experimentation power, or take as many tries as you need to get it wrong. (Think about it for every minute you waste in most pros studio you have spent a 1$ maybe two). So don't rush, take the time to use the gear you have to its fullest potential. Its nice to have nice gear, but don't use nice gear as a short cut to good sound, because you wont get it. Its like learning an instrument it takes practice. It doesnt matter if you put your little brother whose never played guitar on a 100$ walmart first act or a eddie vanhalens setup he won't sound good on either. In your scenario I wouldn't rent anything. Save your money. That 100$ can be used later, its an SM57
or its a studio Projects B1. Honestly with your limited experience, no offense in tended, i also have very limited experience, renting a 1000$ mic won't make any worth while difference.

[Ray Sr.]

Honestly with your limited experience, no offense in tended, i also have very limited experience, renting a 1000$ mic won't make any worth while difference.

None taken. I'm very new to this. That's why I seem to be pulled in so many different directions. I listened both of the suggested material & could only hope to get that type of sound at this point. Though I must admit, my new stuff seems light years ahead of the stuff I did 6 months ago. I think I'll learn to work with a the tampa until I can get all that I can from it. I'm still learning to use the compressor on it. Any compressor suggestions? These are my current settings:
Ratio 4:1
Threshold-10db
Attack 1ms
Release 250ms
I know settings will vary depending on what one is trying to achieve but any general info would be appreciated.

[nanashiwanderer]

theres no universal setting for compressor only what singer, or the mix calls for. Heres the thing, use but don't abuse compression, so use it relativeley mildly while tracking, you want it mainly for the flavour and controlling your voice a bit when you don't move closer and farth to tame quiet and louder parts. Tweak's guide has some tips for using one properly.