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Clichés: Are they bad?

Writing great lyrics for your productions is a skill that gets better with practice and careful consideration. This forum is devoted to lyric writing. Includes tips from Top Contributor Dugz Ink

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Clichés: Are they bad?

Postby Dugz Ink on Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:41 pm

This is a common discussion between "new" lyricists and their mentors, among members of song critique forums, and between song writers and publishers... the use (or over-use) of cliché phrases in lyrics.

Before we discuss the pros and cons (and this should be a discussion, not a lecture) of clichés, it would be good to review the definition. As Plato stated in Phaedrus, "one must first understand what the deliberations are about or the whole matter will fail of its purpose."

Wikipedia wrote:A cliché (from French, stereotype) is a phrase or expression, or the idea expressed by it, that has been overused to the point of losing its intended force or novelty, especially where the same expression was at one time distinctively forceful or novel. By extension, "cliché" applies also to almost any situations, subjects, characterizations, or objects that have similarly become overly familiar or commonplace.


There are some terms that are universally cliché (i.e. "like a fox in a hen house"), but other terms are only considered cliché in their area of origin. For instance, the phrase "nervous as a June Bug in May" would be cliché in a place like Virginia, but might not be cliché to somebody in Oregon... or Germany.

So, a discussion of "what" is cliché would be mute, and should be avoided.

Now, to the discussion of "why" we should (or should not) use clichés.

As stated above, phrases become cliché because so many people find find them interesting that they use those phrases until they become common place.

So, if a phrase is so interesting to so many people, why don't we use them?

The answer (especially for many "pro" writers and publishers) is that clichés do not have the impact of "fresh" lines... which is what catches the attention of the listener in a club or over the radio.

Song writing mentors hate clichés because they can become a crutch that allows the newer writers to avoid the task of digging deep... which is what every writer needs to learn.

As writers, we should aspire to write with our own words.

This can be very difficult, and it is human nature to avoid difficult tasks. Yes, I'm speaking from experience; I've written my share of cliché lines... and my writing has been torn apart by some of the best (and worst) writers and mentors.

But learning to write your own phrases is more creative (and eventually rewarding) than merely pulling pre-conceived phrases out of a box in our head and inserting them into our songs.

Sometimes, a great trick is to look for a way to twist a cliché.

For instance, I was recently writing a song about a woman who had an affair. I wrote down some basic lines, to describe the affair, then twisted an old cliché for the first line of the chorus: "If I could un-make the bed that I slept in..."

The line carries the familiarity of a cliché, but gives it a brand new meaning, thus providing the novelty that is necessary to attract the attention of the listener.

Another trick is to associate a cliché phrase with another line that provides a fresh twist. For instance, in the U2 song "Until The End Of The World" there's the cliché line "I was drowning in my sorrows" followed by the fresh line "But my sorrows, they learned to swim."

So, with all of the alternatives... creating a new phrase, twisting an old phrase, appending a cliché... why would a writer settle for simply re-using a cliché phrase?

The answer, in my experience, is that they (ummm... we, since I have to include myself in this discussion of writers and techniques) simply did not try to writer deeper.
So I asked this God a question, and by firm reply he said "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." Jethro Tull
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Postby AlexHall74 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:30 pm

Doug,

I am no expert writer or lyricist.

It seems to me though that writing lyrics is a vast endeavor, just like writing music.

Use of a cliche might fit one song but not another.

The bottom line is that it's the writer's privilege to determine if a cliche or other literary technique is appropriate in any set of lyrics, poem, or story.

Then it's up to the vocalist to deliver the message effectively once the tune is finished.

Whether the listeners/readers of the final product like it or not is quite another story.

So the story goes for many forms of art.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

It's all relative.

Just my .02.

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Postby cobar rubius on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:59 pm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; one man's garbage is another man's treasure


theres an example for us to consider. those two phrases "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "one mans trash is another mans treasure" are two examples of cliches. those two phrases were once very clever adages, expressing a complicated idea in a catchy, easy to understand way. the problem is that cliches, which were all once excellent lines, have very little impact now that they are so well known. they are literary white noise. those two phrases have lost the impact that they once had and are now glanced over or heard without any emotional response.

before coming down here to mexico, i was a creative writing student and a fairly decent poet. many of the tricks i learned as a poet are helpful as a lyricist. the goal of a lyricist is to make the audience FEEL. this is really only done effectively by providing a new stimulus for the brain...something that it has never heard before.

for example...i remember the first time i heard "stairway to heaven" i was a teenage nerd just discovering the guitar. for me...that song was the pinnacle of guitar playing...the finger picking, the solo...it left me with goosebumps. now...when that song pops up on my mp3 player...i skip it! why? is it because the song has somehow gotten worse? no. my brain has gotten familiar with that song, so the emotional impact has worn off. its the same with lyrics...a cliche will never have the power that somethign new and original will have.

*by the way alex...i`m not trying to bash (just read the post and it sounds a little harsh)...this is just what i have come up with in my experience
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Postby Ted on Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:22 pm

I like your connection to "Stairway to Heaven," Cobar; I agree. Cliche's lose power because they short circuit the brain's willingess to access the imagery in the line. The simile "quiet as a mouse" used to conjure images of a submissive, nervous, and silent subject. Since it's been used so many times, however, now, when our brain hears that cliche, it just says "Oh, quiet...yeah, yeah yeah I know what that means" (Like surly teenager hearing the 'be careful' lecture for the 20th time) without actually flashing the image of the mouse.

I would say that I can forgive cliches if songwriters use them as a vehicle for carrying a really catchy melody. However, if they are supposed to carry meaning I tend to tune them out. Therefore, they detract from the synergy of the song rather than add to it.

Or, as Doug said, if you can spin them, or add twists, then they can bring pleasant surprises. Or clump them all together and make fun of the convention like John Prine does in "Big Old Goofy World."
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Postby AlexHall74 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:51 pm

cobar rubius wrote:
...before coming down here to mexico, i was a creative writing student and a fairly decent poet. many of the tricks i learned as a poet are helpful as a lyricist. the goal of a lyricist is to make the audience FEEL. this is really only done effectively by providing a new stimulus for the brain...something that it has never heard before.


I take no offense to your response cobar rubius, but thank you for the courteous disclaimer. I as well mean no harm; I am only trying to expand the topic at hand.

Please focus on the bolded portion of your response. I agree with your response but wish to point out a weakness in it relative to how far a "new stimulus" goes.

People must be able to IDENTIFY with that which they are experiencing (music, verse, graphical art) for the piece to have any effect on them.

If some lyricist goes too far out into right field with obtuse lyrics that are such an attempt to be new and original that their meaning is too vague to be understood then the artist has missed the boat, IMHO.

So, now we have a continuum of lyrical content.

At the far left of the spectrum (conservative, played out, whatever) we have cliches.

At the far right (eccentric, wordy, too artistic) we have obtuse, misunderstood verse.

In the middle is literary genius???

So,

Cliche ----------|---------- Literary Genius ----------|---------- Obtuse Verse

It is the middle of the spectrum that seems like the "sweet spot" to me.

Don't bore people with what they've already heard unecessarily.

Don't confuse people with over stated and incomprehensible literary riddles.

Dazzle them with verse that moves their hearts, souls and minds (whether its new or not).

The bottom line is all listeners have different tastes and expectations of that which they listen to.


Regards,

-Alex
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cliche

Postby jsepeta on Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:46 pm

where i appreciate cliches the most is when folks have such an excellent mastery of american culture that they can spit out a zillion ideas back to back -- like the beastie boys -- and yet not make me wince by using the reference.

or, in other instances, sometimes it's when the expected cliche is twisted that hooks us most.

there are, however, many times that cliches have been hits in pop music.
"head over heels" by the go-gos is the first one that came to mind. but anything with Hot or Fire or Love usually is a typical place to start
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Postby Dugz Ink on Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:15 pm

AlexHall74 wrote:Cliche ----------|---------- Literary Genius ----------|---------- Obtuse Verse


I think that's a great example of the target area for aspiring writers.

And I also think that writers should not allow themselves the luxury of saying "But that cliché is good enough." The other target is to reach deeper into your soul, and pull out the words that truly represent our darkest fears or brightest joys.

Accepting a cliché because it's easy, is to relegate oneself to medicrity.
So I asked this God a question, and by firm reply he said "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." Jethro Tull
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Postby Dugz Ink on Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:21 pm

Ryan (Kermount) and I were just quoting songs while he cooked dinner and I surfed the forum... and we came up two lines that are a great example of following a worn out cliché with a great twist.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

... It must have been while you were kissing me.


("Hot Summer Night" by Meatloaf)
So I asked this God a question, and by firm reply he said "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." Jethro Tull
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Postby m_morrise on Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:39 pm

Ahh, the cliché.

The use of a cliché makes it difficult to convey meaning.

Accompanying every cliché is a ready made made meaning, imbued in the mind and heart of the hearer by frequent and sometimes nauseating repetition.

Thus, I despair in their use; for I know that the hearer will unconsciously substitute the respective predetermined meaning for any cliché that I choose to employ.
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Postby cobar rubius on Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:47 pm

well stated alex. too far in either direction and you lose your audience. there is a reason why most of us can sing along with "knocking on heavens door" and just stand around scratching our heads when we hear "bob dylan`s 115th dream"! both were written by an exceptional lyricist...but one is much more accessable, while the other is interesting, but not very emotionally engaging.

Cliche ----------|---------- Literary Genius ----------|---------- Obtuse Verse


thats honestly a pretty good rule of thumb for most artistic endeavors. push the limits...but dont entirely break the connection with reality. picasso wasnt famous for painting something that nobody had ever seen before...he was great for painting something that EVERYBODY had seen in a way that NOBODY had seen!

now...you`ve got me thinking about all kinds of things! great! this is the kind of discussion i wish we had more of on these forums!
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Postby peabrain on Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:32 am

Worth a look for creative use of the cliche: David Byrne's Talking Heads lyrics, circa their Speaking in Tongues album. Some songs are (quite consciously, I'm sure) about 90% cliche, with the musical context and the title, as well as that extra 10%, transforming the whole into something quite special.

For example: the opening song, Burning Down The House. Cliches? Count 'em!


(1)Watch out you might get what youre after
Cool babies (2)strange but not a stranger
(3)I am just an ordinary guy
Burning down the house

(4)Hold tight (5)wait till the partys over
(6)Hold tight(7) Were in for nasty weather
(8)There has got to be a way
Burning down the house

(9)Heres your ticket pack your bag time for jumpin overboard
The transportation is here
(10)Close enough but not too far, Maybe you know where you are
(11)Fightin fire with fire

All wet hey you might need a raincoat
Shakedown (12)dreams walking in broad daylight
Three hun-dred six-ty five de-grees
Burning down the house

It was once upon a place sometimes I listen to myself
Gonna come in first place
(12)People on their way to work (13)baby what did you expect
Gonna burst into flame

My house (14)out of the ordinary
(15)Thats right (16)Dont want to hurt nobody
Some things sure can (17)sweep me off my feet
Burning down the house

(18)No visible means of support and (19)you have not seen nuthin yet
Everythings stuck together
(20)I dont know what you expect staring into the TV set
(21)Fighting fire with fire

------------------

Just thought I'd throw that in there. Hope nobody minds! (22 & 23 ;-)

Full lyrics at http://www.thismustbetheplace.net/talki ... lyrics.asp
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Postby Dugz Ink on Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:47 am

peabrain wrote:Worth a look for creative use of the cliche: David Byrne's ... Burning Down The House ...


True, but you are talking about a man with a very unique sound, and a song with a very unique sound. The song sounds fresh... even a couple decades after it came out.

And we're talking about a performing writer. Could he have pitched that song to someone else? Probably not, because it would have been hard for anybody other than Byrne to pull off that song.

So, does that mean it's only okay to use clichés if you're like David Byrne?
So I asked this God a question, and by firm reply he said "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." Jethro Tull
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Postby peabrain on Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:28 am

Dugz Ink wrote:
peabrain wrote:Worth a look for creative use of the cliche: David Byrne's ... Burning Down The House ...


True,


Thank you. :)

Dugz Ink wrote:but you are talking about a man with a very unique sound, and a song with a very unique sound. The song sounds fresh... even a couple decades after it came out.


I also find TH from that period wears rather well.

Dugz Ink wrote:And we're talking about a performing writer. Could he have pitched that song to someone else? Probably not, because it would have been hard for anybody other than Byrne to pull off that song.


Though it has been covered, of course. Not least by Tom Jones and The Cardigans (yes, *that* Tom Jones, as you probably know: http://www.radioparadise.com/content.ph ... g_id=31416 )

Dugz Ink wrote:So, does that mean it's only okay to use clichés if you're like David Byrne?


Nah, I wasn't trying to say that - I just thought it was a good example of how the cliché can be very powerful in a lyric - all of those phrases are ones we hear and repeat often, without thinking about them overmuch, but the music, juxtaposition, and context make them interesting, while at the same time the familiarity hooks us in, so we feel vaguely comfortable inside what is, essentially, a very strange and off-beat kind of piece. Not every song can be like that, but it's interesting to see what can be done...
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Postby Dugz Ink on Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:49 am

peabrain wrote:
...in response to what Dug wrote:So, does that mean it's only okay to use clichés if you're like David Byrne?


Nah, I wasn't trying to say that - I just thought it was a good example of how the cliché can be very powerful in a lyric - all of those phrases are ones we hear and repeat often, without thinking about them overmuch, but the music, juxtaposition, and context make them interesting, while at the same time the familiarity hooks us in, so we feel vaguely comfortable inside what is, essentially, a very strange and off-beat kind of piece. Not every song can be like that, but it's interesting to see what can be done...


I would agree... but I want to leave that door open for discussion.

I think it's very important for every writer to evaluate "the rules of songwriting"... and then decide what is (or is not) important to them and their pursuits.
So I asked this God a question, and by firm reply he said "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." Jethro Tull
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Postby TripleSix Records on Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:22 pm

I just started a powerpop/punk band that plays parties and things like that, and i write the lyrics, which are actually quite good, because they are generic enough for people to relate to, yet specific enough to express my voice as a lyricist. And cliches are all to common in today's popular music.
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Postby deckz on Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:10 pm

An American cliché might not be a cliché over in somewhere like Russia. Wouldn't that make it fresh' over in Russia?
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Postby Dugz Ink on Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:31 am

deckz wrote:An American cliché might not be a cliché over in somewhere like Russia. Wouldn't that make it fresh' over in Russia?


Exactly. That's why...

I wrote:For instance, the phrase "nervous as a June Bug in May" would be cliché in a place like Virginia, but might not be cliché to somebody in Oregon... or Germany.
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Postby dEEEp on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:34 am

Seniors and Mates, i found this thread very interesting and please allow me to add-

"It's not what you say, it's how you say" . I feel, cliches are here to stay, they are like universal truths. They are said in a different way, in each diff. land, but all conclude to one... Truth.
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Postby Jeff on Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:16 pm

Another example Doug must've been too humble to use. At least, I hope thats it and not that he doesn't think its ready for public consumption.

A while back he and I worked on a few songs. One of the songs we wrote was a notsohappychristian song, but I'm still really proud of it. One of the lines he used was "And so I wonder how on earth thy will be done"

He's taken two cliches "How on earth" and "on earth thy will be done" and combined them. Its such a great twist on the two cliches that I've always thought its the best line in the song, even though it comes somewhere in the middle of verse 2. Its not the most important part of the song, but that doesn't stop it from being amazingly impressive and particularly meaningful.

Anywho, just wanted to throw the example out there.

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Postby Dugz Ink on Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:19 pm

Thank you, Jeff. I've always liked that line, too... but I rarely quote myself.
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Postby coffeeboy on Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:48 pm

For me, the over use of the cliche in current pop/rock music has just about driven me nuts. It strikes me as the lazyman's approach to lyric writing (yet I hear them on hits daily). Now I go way out of my way to avoid anything that could be remotely construed as cliche, even if it takes a lot longer. I find also that it usually pays dividends creatively. I wrote this phrase recently expressing my attitude toward this subject...

Where there's a will there's a way,
I know that's what they say
But some times you win but some times you lose,
it ain't always up to you
So kill the cliche, stay drunk for days,
ace hi to play, you lose.. may all your dreams pull through

The intention being to turn the cliche in on itself like the twists you referred to earlier . Not sure if it works but I gave it a go. Listening yesterday to the radio I heard Anastacia´s "one day in your life" and I couldn't believe what I was hearing:

One day in your life
Say love will remind you
How could you leave it all behind
One day in your life
Its gonnafind you
with the tears you let me cry
And baby im stronger than before
You gotta lay it on the line
Baby one day in your life

It's just one long list of cliches! Sorry Doug, gang, but does this make sense to you, or is it just me?
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Postby Jeff on Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:13 pm

A quote from a review I read recently seemed to fit here

IGN Review wrote:Chugging rocker "Don't You Know Who I Think I Am?" is rather cliché-happy, featuring a dual cliché hook, "They say quitters never win / But we walk the plank on a sinking ship", and opening lines, "A penny for your thoughts / but a dollar for your insides", though the '80s musical breeze that it rides in on makes it forgivable.


Infinity on High Review - IGN

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Postby coffeeboy on Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:34 pm

Yeah, I sometimes miss allot of the lyrical cliches and the words in general if they don't stand out and the music is captivating me. I'm guessing that's a good thing? :? Better still is when I can appreciate the music with a strong lyric that fits harmoniously with the general vibe. And best for me is writers creating NEW cliches! A phrase so powerful and true, yet simple and memorable that it could potentially remain in our cultural consciousness long enough to become a cliche. That would be cool! They're hard to come by, know any off hand?
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Postby coffeeboy on Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was thinking about cliches being used in new territories and their potential "freshness" (i.e. American cliches in Russia). The problem I see with that is that a cliche is only as relevent as its significance is to a particular culture. I don't imagine a "June bug in May" necessarily has any meaning to someone who doesn't get the intended implication, i.e. Russians. Here in Portugal, I'm often translating old cliches or phrases that literally mean absolutely nothing to me in English. I don't have the cultural references to appreciate them.
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Postby Dugz Ink on Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:15 am

coffeeboy wrote:The problem I see with that is that a cliche is only as relevent as its significance is to a particular culture. I don't imagine a "June bug in May" necessarily has any meaning to someone who doesn't get the intended implication...


Potentially true, but I see two different discussions in that comment:

1) Sometimes we become so familiar with a phrase that we don't see its potential. Some of us will look at "June Bug" and see a name, but those who are less familiar (or do not have bugs by that name in their country) may see it merely as a phrase... a generic term for any bug that appears in June... an occurrance that happens in many countries around the world that are on the same lattitude. The same mental image can be shown simply by replacing the word "bug" with something else... "I feel as out of place as a June flower in May."

2) Carrying a cliche over to a different culture is difficult. Carrying a phrase over to a different language is difficult. You would have to find a way to twist it around to fit... and sometimes that's impossible.

However, during your effort to take something from English to Portuguese, you may come up with way to take something that is very cliche and turn into something incredibly fresh.

In either case (1 or 2) you are taking the old worn out phrase and turning it into something new... and expanding your writing abilities by NOT using cliches as literary crutches.
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