Rig #1 Entry Level Budget Firewire

[aww-de-oh]

Hello kopec,

i want to play both keyboards simultaneously and hear the audio output in my headphones - how can i arrange that having the aforementioned AI?

Most AI's will have one (or more) dedicated headphone output. Just plug your heaphones there.
For monitors, connect those to Outputs 1 and 2 (for L and R)

I connect audio outputs from keyboards to the audio inputs (= line inputs?) and then audio output from the AI to my headphones?

Line Outs from the keys connect to Line Ins on the AI - correct. Usually you'll want your headphones connected to the 'phones' port. This is usually a powered port where you can adjust the headphones gain.

The other Outputs (such as Out 1 and Out 2) usually go to your left monitor speaker and right monitor speaker, respectively.

[kopec]

thanks a lot!

[kopec]

Hi, it's me again. I read again about audio interfaces, just to be sure what i will get myself. I just want to ask a few things. My notebook says it has external port - 1 IEEE 1394 - looks like this

Code: Select all

http://supcontent.gateway.com/support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/Gateway/M320/350193747.jpg

I want to ask if i connect most of Firewire audio interfaces to it or if i need some kind of adapter. I looked up Presonus Firestudio mobile, it says this: high-speed FireWire 400 (IEEE 1394) port is needed, so maybe there are no such issues when considering this unit. Although i can't tell what kind of port i have on my notebook, but somewhere i found that it's the classical 400 port. If this wasn't true, are there any firewire adapters? I mean, there's a specific connector on the AI and a specific port on my laptop. Do I have to take a look at the FW connector of the AI or is it enough that my laptop has some FW port and i can connect the AI by soem adapter then. many thanks.

Now about the rig - i'd like to record mostly myself alone, but sometimes have a guitarist friend come over and jam and record together. Tweak said that i need as many inputs as how many sources i want to record simultaneously. I use 2 keyborads at the same time, i want to record stereo, so that's 4 inputs if im right. I if want my friend to record his track at the same time, there;s gonna be another 1 input (i need AI with at least 6 inputs). Then we can record vocals (so i need AI with acceptional preamps). 2 line outs are for the monitors. My question is about hearing the thing we would play. If im co-playing with my friend,i play both keys, he;s playing a guitar. And if we both want to hear what we're playing we can either both have headphones or we can listen via the monitors, right? If AI has only 1 phones out port, is it possible to plug in adapter with 2 phones out or do I have to buy AI with 2 phones out ports?

And to give you something concrete, im thinkin about these AI (can anyone say anything about them regarding their usage on Vista Home Premium 32-bit system? The last 3 have more outputs than firestudio mobile, i'm considering them because i MIGHT add a mixer later on. I checked the download section for all 4 interfaces, and they all have drivers for my vista 32bit and are said to run on this platform, anyway as Tweak said: laptop + Vista + AI = dangerous ground, so if you have any experience with these AI, please, share it here. I read some of the reports on this forum, but I would like someone experienced to give me a piece of advice on which card to choose

Presonus Firestudio Mobile - (300$) - is it true i can daisy-chain up to 4 Presonus Firestudio products, so I can solve my "too few line outs"(2) problem if i would like to add a mixer later on?
Also this unit says it has unbalanced inputs unlike all other AI listed here: Instrument Input (¼" TRS, Channels 1 & 2)
Type TS Female Unbalanced
Input Impedance 1 MΩ

Edirol FA 101 (380$) - is there some problem with that it's in fact Roland product and I play mainly Korgs?
Presonus Firestudio Project (500$)
Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 (500$) - most reviews were negative about this unit

My laptop:
HP Pavilion Entertainment PC dv5
Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit - service pack 2
Intel Core Duo 2GHz/2 GHz
RAM 2 GB

I know it's long, and maybe i'm askin basic questions tweak has answered in his guide, but i read it several times and still have some problems, so if you have time to help me, plase do : )))) much appreciated!!! many thanks!

[aww-de-oh]

I want to ask if i connect most of Firewire audio interfaces to it or if i need some kind of adapter. I looked up Presonus Firestudio mobile, it says this: high-speed FireWire 400 (IEEE 1394) port is needed, so maybe there are no such issues when considering this unit. Although i can't tell what kind of port i have on my notebook, but somewhere i found that it's the classical 400 port. If this wasn't true, are there any firewire adapters? I mean, there's a specific connector on the AI and a specific port on my laptop. Do I have to take a look at the FW connector of the AI or is it enough that my laptop has some FW port and i can connect the AI by soem adapter then. many thanks

IEEE 1394 is just another name for Firewire.

Whether your laptops firewire chip will work with most AI's is a toss up. (that's why it's better to use a desktop.. you can add TI firewire [Texas Instruments] with a PCI card)
That said, you'd be better off getting an AI with as many Inputs as you need. Not sure that daisy chaining is possible with the PF Mobile.

Does your laptop have an "Express Slot"? (sometimes if the Firewire chip is incompatible, you can add one that is..."sometimes" being the key word).
If you can find a USB AI to fit your needs, you may be better off doing that with your laptop.. but then again, FW might work (again, toss up with laptops.. either it will or it won't). I'd make sure you have the opportunity to return the AI if it happens to not work with your particular laptop.

All that said, if you like Presonus: look at the Firestudio or Firestudio Project. Both should have your inputs covered.
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--PRSFSPROJECT
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--PRSFIRESTUDIO

If you need more headphone outputs, you can always get a cheap headphone amp for tracking purposes:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--BEHAMP800

[minimoo]

This is the rig I'm planning to get, though I have a question about microphones... I want to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time, should I get two condenser mics or one condenser and one dynamic?

[kopec]

Does your laptop have an "Express Slot"? (sometimes if the Firewire chip is incompatible, you can add one that is..."sometimes" being the key word).

This is what my laptop has:
PC Card Slots

* One ExpressCard/54 slot (also supports ExpressCard/34)

External Ports

* 5-in-1 integrated Digital Media Reader for Secure Digital cards, MultiMedia cards, Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, or xD Picture cards
* 4 USB 2.0
* 1 VGA port
* 1 HDMI connector
* 1 eSata connector
* 1 RJ45 ethernet connector
* 2 headphones-out
* 1 mic-in
* 1 IEEE 1394
* remote control infrared port (remote optional)
* cable docking connector

If you can find a USB AI to fit your needs, you may be better off doing that with your laptop

looking at some right now... I think my Q is whether i really need FW or I can do well enough with USB considering what i want to accomplish here, i.e. most of the time recording solo with my 2 keyboards, then add vocals, then guitar part, only sometimes i will have my friend over to record keyboards and guitar at the same time, thank you!

So far, I considered these: ( the last 2 dont have MIDI interface, but I can easily connect my keyboards by separate USB-MIDI interface to my laptop, right?

Tascam US1641 (300$) - suppors 32-bit vista
M-Audio Fast track ultra (350$) - it jsut says it works with vista
M-audio Fast track ultra 8r (500$)
Tascam US2000 (500$) - doesnt say anything about specific OS on their website
Line 6 Toneport UX8 (500$) - support s vista (sp 2 only)

[aww-de-oh]

Any one of these:
The Tascam US1641
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--TASUS1641
Fast track ultra , and Ultra 8r
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--MDOFTULTRA
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--MDOFTULTRA8R

Has all you'll need, should be little hassle.

Since you have an eSata port, i would definately get an external hard drive (7200rpm eSata) as a dedicated audio drive (otherwise you'll not be able to record alot of channels, but with the second drive you should have no problems.)
In your DAW software, just point it at the second drive as the destination for your audio. (OS and Programs stay on your 1st hard drive)

[aww-de-oh]

This is the rig I'm planning to get, though I have a question about microphones... I want to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time, should I get two condenser mics or one condenser and one dynamic?

Hello minimoo.
Condenser mics generally need very little gain (but do need +48v Phantom power) and are great for picking up quieter sources. Dynamics (generally) will need more gain, and will generally do better with an outboard preamp. (tho not necessary)
For a dynamic to record acoustic, you can't go wrong with an Sure SM57 (any studio should have at least one!) + it's cheap as mic's go.. & will last a very very long time.
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--SHUSM57LC

Condenser mics: How much do you want to spend?
A decent low noise condenser to start with is the Rhode Nt1a
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--RODNT1A
(It's its' 15th anniversary, so you'll get extra goodies thrown in! mic cable, shock mount, storage bag, pop filter..)
For around 2x the price there's the Nt2a:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--RODNT2A
which gives pickup pattern, high pass filter, and pad switches on the mic.

[dillardlk]

Tweak,
I'm a beginner saxaphonist and have recorded in someone elses studio. I use Fruity Loops to create my midi tracks, lay my sound fonts on top and export to two stereo audio tracks, put the head phones on and play to the recorded audio while capturing it in WaveLabs. This is the hook-up I'm looking to go with to start my own studio recordings up:

E-MU EM8761 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface
YAMAHA RH10MS S-Logic Studio Headphones
eMedia EK05051 Starter Piano and Keyboard Instructional Software
E-MU EM7700 Xboard 25

I already have studio mics and powered flat reference recording monitor speakers.

Is the keyboard neccessary?

[Tweak]

>Is the keyboard neccessary?

You can use Logic without a keyboard. There is a software keyboard you can call up that turns your typing keyboard into a music keyboard inside Logic. After a while you may want the real thing, but you can postpone it indefinitely.

[kopec]

Any one of these:
The Tascam US1641
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--TASUS1641
Fast track ultra , and Ultra 8r
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--MDOFTULTRA
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--MDOFTULTRA8R

thank you very much, really helpful. Now I'm just trying to choose one from these 3 - I read all reviews on zzounds on these products. Most praised was M-audio ultra 8r, but of course it's 500$. There were basically positive reviews on the other 2 units, although there were a few totally disappointing opinions for each of them:
TASCAM US1641

1 - when recording audio or playback, it would stall, or skip a bit, causing timing issues. This is very bad as I have lost many good takes and makes it impossible to complete assignments. 2 – In Sonar I cannot get it to work with ADSO only WHM in which case I can only use 8 channels, although Cubase works fine in ADSO? 3 - Sonar does not even playback, as soon as it starts it freezes up and gives a DROP OUT error. 4 - Every so often the sound would be distorted or shill, and I have to reset the unit by turning it off and on. 5 - In both Cubase and Sonar while recording a audio track the Midi tracks would either play in only one channel (left or right) or stop, stall, slow, speed up, and generally act erratic.

But sound levels going into the DAW are surprisingly low. We have to nearly max out the input trim pot. This can't be good for sound. Thought it was just our unit, sent it in to Tascam, they sent us a new one - same thing: at three quarters of the way up on the gain, you hardly get 10-15db's into your DAW. This is with the singer singing at his loudest comfortable levels, directly into the mic, almost touching it. To get the desired -6dbs, I have to max out the trim. That sucks. Condensers give slightly better signal, but not much. I've tried various mics, dynamic and condenser - same result.

M-AUDIO FAST TRACK ULTRA

Here it was only OS issues (Vista SP1, Leopard OS X 10.5)

Since you have an eSata port, i would definately get an external hard drive (7200rpm eSata) as a dedicated audio drive (otherwise you'll not be able to record alot of channels, but with the second drive you should have no problems.)
In your DAW software, just point it at the second drive as the destination for your audio. (OS and Programs stay on your 1st hard drive)

Can you recommend me some models or brands of these hard drives? I just read about what eSATA really is, what it's for, but so far havent got any deeper. I'll further my research, but if you have some valuable ideas or experience or some tips for buying, I'd be happy if you could share them with me/us : )

[kopec]

Just an add-on. I totally forgot about that FW Express card slot option. Basically, what i found on the net is that I can buy this type of card (FW/Express card - sometimes even with USB 2.0), insert it in my Express card slot (my laptop supports both 34/54 formats) and if it has that TI (texas instruments) component, i can use FW AI without any major problems (correct me if im wrong). Given in my previous posts considering possible FW AI solutions, I looked at Presonus recomm. on this topic and found this:

At this time, PreSonus only recommends the following Express cards:
• ADS Pyro 1394a
• StarTech EC13942

http://shopper.cnet.com/i-o-cards/ads-pyro-1394a-usb2/4014-3019_9-32738844.html#info-5

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839158010
one of the reviews on this unit:
Other Thoughts: Firebox will not install audio device drivers while using this expresscard firewire connector. From my research however it appears that this is a common problem with all laptop expresscard firewire connectors and firebox.

http://www.startech.com/item/EC13942-2-Port-ExpressCard-IEEE-1394-Firewire-Card.aspx

What do you think about this? thanks a lot mates

[aww-de-oh]

Since you have an eSata port, i would definately get an external hard drive (7200rpm eSata) as a dedicated audio drive (otherwise you'll not be able to record alot of channels, but with the second drive you should have no problems.)
In your DAW software, just point it at the second drive as the destination for your audio. (OS and Programs stay on your 1st hard drive)

Can you recommend me some models or brands of these hard drives? I just read about what eSATA really is, what it's for, but so far havent got any deeper. I'll further my research, but if you have some valuable ideas or experience or some tips for buying, I'd be happy if you could share them with me/us : )

Well with a laptop, the usual inclination is to grab the small 2.5cm hard drives. DON'T!!
You'll pay twice the price for half the storage! Since this is an External drive, it doesn't have to fit inside a laptop. So, using a desktop drive will work just fine! (The only advantage of using the smaller size, is ..well... it's smaller! hehe)

There's two ways to go here. You can buy an external hard drive Enclosure (making sure it has an eSata port). Then drop in your favorite (SATA) desktop hard drive into it.
OR
Just buy one that has the enclosure and drive already installed. (this is the easiest route)

Alot of big studio's use Glyph external drives. (But they are EXPENSIVE as heck)
Many people use and like the LACiE drives. (they tend to be quiet)
Western Digital is another choice.

[aww-de-oh]

About the ExpressCard:

That's why i say it will either work, or it won't. There's a small chance if you get the TI chip ExpressCard it will clear up the proplems of using FW on a laptop.. but "Sometimes" is key! (sometimes it's more than FW chipset)
It's much safer to use a FW AI on a desktop. You can usually always get it to work. Laptops, unless specifically built for audio production, are a shot in the dark. It's gonna work, or it won't.

Just fair warning! Don't want you to blame me if yours doesn't work.. It's almost impossible to tell which chipset a laptop manufacturer uses, and that's not even considering BIOS problems..
Look at Digidesigns website for approved laptops (even if you dont' use ProTools), it can give a general indication whether your laptop will work or not (for FireWire AI's)!

[kopec]

About the ExpressCard:
That's why i say it will either work, or it won't. There's a small chance if you get the TI chip ExpressCard it will clear up the proplems of using FW on a laptop.. but "Sometimes" is key! (sometimes it's more than FW chipset)
It's much safer to use a FW AI on a desktop. You can usually always get it to work. Laptops, unless specifically built for audio production, are a shot in the dark. It's gonna work, or it won't.
Just fair warning! Don't want you to blame me if yours doesn't work.. It's almost impossible to tell which chipset a laptop manufacturer uses, and that's not even considering BIOS problems..
Look at Digidesigns website for approved laptops (even if you dont' use ProTools), it can give a general indication whether your laptop will work or not (for FireWire AI's)!

thanks aww-de-ooh, i decided to go with USB 2.0 AI, as I'm already tired of this FW issue - it could be great, but i dont wanna buy something and then lose my sanity waiting for how the unit will react with my laptop(all in all im tired of this FW etc. I think USB 2.0 is better choice for my laptop and needs. Speaking of which i already removed M-audio fast track ultra r8 from my wishlist as it's more expensive and i need to buy this eSATA hard drive and a decent cond. microphone. That left me with only 2 choices, i discarded tascam as well, as it has overkill 14 inputs and i really wont use them all, so... i'm going with M-audio Fast Track Ultra (290$ on ebay sellers site w/ SW (Ableton live lite)/warranty/etc). Any last words for my choice? like i dont know: WAAAAAIT, you going to buy this, and you have XY laptop, XY OS, XY demands, XY instrument- DONT DO IT!!!! : D that kind of response ; )

And thanks for eSATA issue as well, looking at right now
Thank you very much, now i'm slowly shifting to solving mic choice : )
see you later and thanks a lot!

[aww-de-oh]

thanks aww-de-ooh, i decided to go with USB 2.0 AI, as I'm already tired of this FW issue - it could be great, but i dont wanna buy something and then lose my sanity waiting for how the unit will react with my laptop(all in all im tired of this FW etc. I think USB 2.0 is better choice for my laptop and needs.

Cool.
Firewire AI's make for great interfaces. But, on laptops? I can't, with good conscience, recommend using one on a random laptop. (just so, in case you ever move to a desktop setup, you don't need to be nearly as picky!)

I believe you've made the right move going with USB-2.0 for your laptop.

* USB bus power enables analog channels 1 and 2, S/PDIF I/O, and headphone output 1; included power supply required for full 8 x 8 operation.

Just be aware: To use all the available Inputs/Outputs, you'll need to use the 'wall wart' power supply.
And if you do use the USB bus power (instead of plugging it into the wall), make sure it's not on a cheapo hub. (they tend not to supply enough power)
You'll get 2 tracks + headphones using USB power. (& S/PDIF if you actually use those).
It doesn't mention Outs 1 & 2, so i'm thinking you'll have to plug it into an outlet to use monitor speakers (powered or passive) and the rest of the Inputs.

[dang it all! go buy a desktop! lol, just joking! ]

[kopec]

thanks, i'd love to buy a desktop-based music system, but for now it's just the music of future. Anyway, I'm trying to focus now on choosing a decent VOCAL mic (99% vocal recording). I read the tweaks guide and some reviews. Here are my options:

Rode NT1a (230$ anniver.pack)
Studio Projects B1 (100$) / C1 (250$)

They are all well-suited for vocals, but i just want to know if i can do well with the studio projects b1 for the start (or maybe that ShureSM57, but i think a condense mic is more suitable for me now, even though thsi mic is versatile and cheap, any experience on recordign vocals?? thanks)

About the eSATA drives: i think that even 500GB is too much for me when i'm just beginning with recordings. Also i want to ask if having higher cache memory is somewhat essential for me. i now it's better to have higher cache, but if it's some great decider that i have to consider when buying a hard drive. thanks (glyph drives are really quite expensive, on the other hand lacie drives are quite popular, although sometimes people say they are disturbingly non-stop noticeably noisy). thanks for help!

Mobile Storage 750GB 7200RPM eSATA & USB Hard Drive New (75$)
LaCie 320gb external (70$)
LACIE D2 QUADRA 500GB USB 2.0 SATAII FW (125$)
LaCie Hard Disk FW 400/USB 2.0/eSATA (500 GB=95$)/ (1 TB=136$)

And again, just a quickie answer: i want to record my 2 keyboards stereo (4line ins) simultaneously. M-audio fast track ultra has 6 inputs, 4 of them preamps included - what happens when i connect keyboard line in into one of these preamps? is the preamp problem?. As i already told you what and how i want to recrod most of the time, i assume it's no big deal, im just curious.thanks

[aww-de-oh]

, just a quickie answer: i want to record my 2 keyboards stereo (4line ins) simultaneously. M-audio fast track ultra has 6 inputs, 4 of them preamps included - what happens when i connect keyboard line in into one of these preamps? is the preamp problem?.

The FastTrackUltra has 6 line ins (on the back), so you should be good there. Also, two of the mic inputs are 'combo' jacks (meaning you can plug an XLR [mic] plug or 1/4" [instrument] into it).
Depending on how they have the internal wiring on those combos, you will probably be ok (just leave the gain at '0' when using an instrument). I would use the dedicated line-ins on the rear of the AI first.. then if you fill those, move to the combo jacks.

About the eSATA drives: i think that even 500GB is too much for me when i'm just beginning with recordings. Also i want to ask if having higher cache memory is somewhat essential for me. i now it's better to have higher cache, but if it's some great decider that i have to consider when buying a hard drive

The more cache the better, but: I wouldn't get hung up on those specs, just get a current generation (7200rpm), they are fast enough these days that you won't really see any gain or loss because of cache alone. The only time you'd notice is if you totally maxed out the drives bandwidth.. and by that time, it's too late anyway! hehe. (i would start a thread about which External drive to use. Get some feedback from a bunch of people, ask which is reliable and quiet. People that write on sellers boards, usually won't bother.. unless they've had a problem and want to vent! [or their competetion wants to chime in..] )

As for which mic?: What kind of vocals are we talking about? Screaming? or more laid back?

[kopec]

thanks a lot for the answers. i'm about to start a thread on this "which hard drive" issue.

Vocals: well, both harsh and brutal growls as well as echoing soaring (kotipelto-like) vocals. From soft to extremly loud. for rock and metal songs,dont what else to say, but we have talked about it with my friend, and we quite like the Rode NT1a mic, do you think it might be useful for these styles as a vocal recording mic? thank you!

[aww-de-oh]

Vocals: well, both harsh and brutal growls as well as echoing soaring (kotipelto-like) vocals. From soft to extremly loud. for rock and metal songs,dont what else to say, but we have talked about it with my friend, and we quite like the Rode NT1a mic, do you think it might be useful for these styles as a vocal recording mic?

For the harsh and brutal growls, the NT1a wouldn't be my first pick. (i use this mic, and it's great for the price.. just not for screaming into. It's a very sensitive mic!)
For the screaming/growling stuff, i'd look at the tried and true (and blessedly cheap!) Shure SM58. Combined with a decent preamp, the sm57-(more for instruments) or sm58-(more for vocals) [altho you can use either or, they're pretty much the same mic, just with different capsules], get alot of use here.
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--SHUSM57LC
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--SHUSM58
An alternative to the sm58 would be the Sure 'beta' 58. It has a different output than the 58 (i would say a bigger bump in the high frequency content). Might want to try your voice thru those, and see which flatters it more. (and just cause they are 50% more $, doesn't make them a 'better' mic, just different!)
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--SHUBETA87A
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--SHUBETA58A

Stay away from the Shure "PG" mics for recording. (if your budget allows!)

[kopec]

Hm, ok, thanks. So i can expand the options by Shure mics (M-audio should have decent preamps, and they say gain is >60dB, so it might work well also with dynamic mics). Nice thing about that Shure sm58 is its price (100$), but then again, I won't be recording only growls or ear-bleeding/head-exploding vocals, but also soothing, clear vocals for accompying classical piano as well as vocals like many loud rock/pop-rock bands. Best solution would be to buy more mics, but for now I can be happy with only one. I listened to some demos or vids on YT, but still dont know what to buy. Maybe that Shure is fine, and dont need a sensitive mic like Rode. Must do more research i think ; )
thanks a lot!

[aww-de-oh]

The Sure sm57 / sm58 , are not your only choice by far. But they are considered studio "workhorses" for a reason! You'd be hard pressed to find a studio (or even a live event!) that wasn't using at least one!

The Rhode NT1a is an excellent mic, for the price. It's one of the quietest (self noise) mics around. Being a condenser mic, you'll likely not like the sound of growls and stuff thru it tho.
If you're looking for an all-purpose mic, the Shure is probably the nearest to that description.

Try posting or reading some reviews in the mic section. Don't take my word alone!
~Aww

[kopec]

don't worry, I always try to collect as many pieces of information on sth as i can. I was just throwing ideas and options. thank you!

[aww-de-oh]

don't worry, I always try to collect as many pieces of information on sth as i can. I was just throwing ideas and options. thank you!

My pleasure!

[kopec]

Just want to ask which cable is for Rode NT1a mic - XLR female-male or male-male? I know it's mic Q, but i wanted to keep it in this thread as it might be part of my "rig"